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Message Archive: Messages 901 - 950



950. Ringling 1904-1916, 14 November, 2005 - I notice on the Society's "Circus Routes" page that there are no records for Ringling Brothers prior to 1919. Who holds those records? I'm looking for the years 1904 to 1916, which cover the period when Ringling and B&B merged. Anne Davison, mattanne@cox.net, Thank you. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 15 November, 2005 - Just a little information and somebody probably can offer more. James Bailey died in 1906. It was his wife who sold the interests in the Barnum & Bailey Circus to the Ringling Bros. after his death. With that being said, your best source of public information concerning these routes would be the Circus World Museum Research Library in Baraboo, WI. There are a couple terrific collections of routes in private ownership as well. I will warn you though don't get in a big hurry waiting for an answer from Baraboo. The Library staff has been devastated due to budget constraints and the one young lady still left is only working part time. Good Luck. Bob Cline
    Reply: 15 November, 2005 - I was just at the CWM library in Baraboo. The one staff member is working 30 hours a week. If you are traveling to the library, you should call, write or email ahead of time. It is my understanding the staff member is responding to email. Judy Griffin
    Reply: 16 November, 2005 - Thanks to both Bob and Judy. To Bob: You mention "There are a couple terrific collections of routes in private ownership as well." Do you know if they include the Ringling routes I'm seeking, or does only CWM have those? If they do include the Ringling routes, are these collections accessible to the public, and who/where are these private collections? Anne
    Reply: 17 November, 2005 - Compiled Barnum show routes for 1871-1918 [except for two in the 1870s] were printed in the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey route book of 1945. Those for the Ringling show of 1884-1918 were in the RBBB 1946 route book. Sometimes copies of these turn up on auction sites. Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 20 November, 2005 - I can tell you, I have contacted the owner of the best known route collection, I know of. I haven't gotten a reply back yet. Normally I do so I'm inclined to think he's travelling. Bob Cline
    Reply: 21 November, 2005 - Thanks again for the replies. I did a search on Google. Found a collection title, "Circus/Vaudeville/Minstrel Collection, ca. 1905-1946" at UCSB, Library, Department of Special Collections. The description includes "lists of towns played", and 'Circus Day' itineraries (including Ringling-Barnum 1946.) Fred, would this be the 1946 route book you mention? And, is a 'Circus Day' intinerary different than a route book? Finding a collection to visit closer to home (California) would be a nice thing. Regarding the auction sites: (approximately) what would a route book sell for? Another question: Does the CWM contain souvenir programs for Ringling, 1904 - 1913? Any other leads? Thanks, Anne
    Reply: 29 November, 2005 - The UCSB collection may largely be that compiled by Raymond Toole-Stott, or perhaps a compilation of them. "Circus Day" suggests the mimeographed publication by Charlie Campbell and not the RBBB route book, but it's hard to know for certain. The question regarding holdings is best addressed directly to the institution. Market values are established by auction sites; monitoring them is a good way to see what's reasonable. While the information has "higher" value, the route value is simply that of a photocopy. Fred Dahlinger

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949. Millie Turnour (Cook), Wooda Cook, Achille Onofri, 13 November, 2005 - I am researching and would appreciate any info on the following circus performers circa 1870's-1880's MILLIE COOK aka MILLIE TURNOUR (Trapeze artist), WOODA COOK (Rider and leaper, Millie's first husband) ACHILLE ONOFRI (Wire Walker, Millie met him in Havana, he was her second husband(?). Millie had 4 children by Wooda Cook by 1885 and was now living in Philadelphia with Onofri who she had met in Havana. She was off with the Forepaugh's Circus during May 11, 1885 when while away, Onofri brutally beat to death little Lottie Cook, her 9 yr old daughter because she was unable to walk on the tight rope. There was a sensational trial in Phila and Onofri was committed to Eastern State Prison for 12 years hard labor. Millie was with several circus' including Ringling, Forepaughs, Orrin, Noyes etc. I would appreciate any info you may have on these individuals. Thank you in advance for your trouble. Linda Taylor. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 21 Mar 2008 - Hello, Wooda Cook was born in Bridgewater, PA in 1854 to James and Isabel Cook. After his mother's death and when his father was away in the Civil War for 4 years, he went to Pgh and worked as bootblack and newsboy. When Thayer& Noyes circus came to town, he joined, He worked his way up to a bareback rider and did many backward flips. He traveled over the country and in England, Australia, and Mexico. He married Millie Turnour, a trapeze artist from a circus family. They had 4 children. One girl-Carlotta - was murdered in about 1884 by her stepfather while the mother was away. She was beaten to death and her one brother was also badly beaten. This happened in Philadelphia. The stepfather received 12 years of hard labor for the crime. Wooda Cook's family (father) lived in Fayette City, PA. Wooda died of Yellow Fever in Mexico on December 28, 1881. Janet Rarick


948. M & M Tent Show, Yahr's(?) Circus, 12 November, 2005 - I am looking for information on the M & M Tent Show and a circus called Yahr's (sp?). They were both primarily in the Midwest, MN, ND, SD, WI, MT and ID. Maybe some other states, I am not sure. My Dad worked for them in the 30s. He is 88 years old now has no memory left except for the names of them. Many years ago, he told me and one of his friends who worked with him, would get to the "next town" a day or so in advance and mow lawns along the main street and make enough to get a room and take a bath before the circus would arrive there. Then they would work for the circus and do the same thing getting to the next town. Any help would be appreciated. Kathy Kerr, North Bend, WA., kerrjk@earthlink.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 19 November, 2005 - The M & M International Circus was owned by Grace McIntosh out of Detroit, Michigan from 1971 to 1991. The show played from New York to Nebraska and the states in between. However this show played indoors during the winter and spot dates during the spring, and long after the 1930s. Doubt if it is the show you are looking for. The only possibility would be the M. M. York's Big Shows and Wild West that advertised for a June 12, 1894 Hartford City, Indiana date. In 1929 a York and Miller Circus was also reported on the road, could be the same M. M. York. Really do not have anything on the show but if M. M. York was still around in the 1920s and had a small show out, it might be a lead. You could try the US Census to see if there is anything on him. Ted Bowman Circus Route Collection
    Reply: 10 February, 2006 - My Dad, soon to be 80, June 28, 2006, grew up in Alsen, SD. He and his 2 brothers would help set up tents to get into show no charge (he thought M & N show) but have only found M & M. He said it was a traveling play, they would come to town and put on a different play each night and then travel on, but would return each summer. Perhaps your Dad remembers Ralph, Raymond and Roger Messler from Alsen, South Dakota? Best regards, Kristi

    Reply: 03 January, 2007 - I grew up in Meade County, SD during the 1930's when the M & M tent show was the big event of the summer. Everybody looked forward to and attended the M & M show. One of the owners I believed was named Mitchell. The show moved from small town to small town and provided top entertainment to us hillbillies. I still remember the scary production called the Crimson Hand which would give one nightmares for months. I believe the acting and music was exceptional, although I must admit that we did not have much for comparison in the drought-stricken depression of the 30's. Richard Kovarik

    Reply: 10 July 2007 - I'm the grandson of Olive Mitchell. My grandmother lived in LeMars, Iowa at the time of her passing. I too am seeking information about the M&M Tent Shows. I believe that M&M signified Mitchell & Mitchell. As a little boy growing up in LeMars,Iowa I vaguely remember my grandmother talking about the M&M Tent Shows and her participating in them. My grandmother always encouraged me to pursue my musical interests which included drum lessons, singing in the Methodist Church choir, ballet and ventriloquism. I believe that my great grandparents were the owners of the M&M Tent Shows. I recall something about them building the first theatre with electricity around but outside the LeMars community. I would welcome any feedback as to learn more about my family's involvement. WILLIAM BERKE, wgberke@msn.com

    Reply: 10 Mar 2008 - Hi, my dad had the Yahr's Amusement and I am looking for information on that, also my mom was Lorraine the Spidora, if anyone has information on that. Bafflingwonder of the world

    Reply: 20 Oct 2008 - Hello. What can you tell me about Yahr's Tent show? My Dad has passed away since I posted the initial request for information, so I was not able to get very much from him except the names of the shows he worked for. M & M and Yahrs were the two he remembered the easiest. But he was not able to tell me a lot about either one. Thanks, Kathy


947. White Tops, 11 November, 2005 - I did a search on yahoo and came up with this. Which issue of White Tops is this article in and how can I purchase a copy of that issue? St Louis Missouri White Tops Index ... Gorilla "Gargantua" Seibel Bros Circus (1903-1917) (Dog and Pony Show) ... p.42. Seibel Bros. 1903 ... ww.circushistory.org/Bandwagon/WT8.htm. Jeanna Bergman JMBdreamillusions@yahoo.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 11 November, 2005 - Jeanna, you need to actually go to the website page at www.circushistory.org/Bandwagon/WT8.htm. The information on which issue the article is in is on that page. At the top of the page it tells you about the information in each entry (e.g., Title, author, Volume, Number, Year, pages. Then do a "find" to get to the article you want. At the top of the page is a link to the Circus Fans Association, they are who you need to contact to obtain a copy of the article. I believe they also have the articles in "White Tops" indexed on their website. Otherwise you can try your local library inter-library loan or a repository such as Circus World Museum Parkinson Library. Maybe someone reading this list can explain this more clearly than I can. The Seibel Bros. Circus article is in "White Tops," Vol. 68, No. 6, 1995, p. 42. J. Griffin


946. Barnum train accident, 08 November, 2005 - I am looking for an account of the Potsdam NY Barnum circus train accident in 1889 or 1899 at Clarks crossing. I have an account given to me by my great mother. I would like to confim the date and gather any other relevant facts about the accident. Thank you very much, Tim Frizzell. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - Salem (OH) Daily News, August 24, 1889. Watertown, N.Y. Aug. 24. - Barnum & Bailey's circus train met with a serious accident near Potsdam while en route from Gouvereur to Montreal on the Rome, Watertown & Ogdensburg railroad late Thursday night. An axle broke on the second train, derailing six cars and telescoping two more, crushing every thing in them. Thirty ring horses, one of the chariot teams and two camels were killed. . . . J. Griffin
    Reply: 17 November, 2005 - There is coverage in "New York Clipper," September 14, 1889, in the column titled "Under the White Tents," an entry headed "Tidings from the Barnum-Bailey Show." A set of one to two dozen photographs exists in various places that documents the incident. They show the wreck site and also animals that remained in the area. Some of the views may be found in local collections, like the Potsdam Museum. One of the views is in the Durant's book "Pictorial History of the American Circus." Others were utilized to illustrate a series of articles about the circus in the Saturday Evening Post many years ago. Another showing an undamaged cut of cars also appears in "Trains of the Circus, 1872-1956," page 18. Fred Dahlinger


945. W. E. Morgan circus, 08 November, 2005 - Does anyone have any information about Morgan's Nickel Plate Show or the W. E. Morgan circus? This circus ran from around 1921 to 1925. I wonder where this circus was based? Darren Bryan in Georgia, darrenrx@bellsouth.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 22 May, 2006 - My grandmother and grandfather's family had a circus and or vaudeville act, she used to talk about her family traveling all over. I have pictures somewhere of some of the contortions. Her maiden name was Morgan and her married name was Hendricks. I also remember having a Grandpa and Grandma Morgan. We are from Louisville, KY. But I don't know where they were from originally. I do have an Aunt that is still alive and I am going to contact her to find out any information about that side of the family. I have been wondering myself about some of the history. Please let me know information that you have on the Morgan's. Sincerely, Brenda


944. Walter Main train wreck 1893, 08 November, 2005 - I am looking for information about the Walter Main circus train wreck of May 30 1893, near Tyrone PA. My great grandfather was the conductor. Email me at loriqueenbead@msn.com. Thanks, Lori. [also see message 307] Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - For some information, check Olympians of the Sawdust Circle on this website under Walter L. Main. Slout.
    Reply: 13 November, 2005 - The Railroaders Memorial Museum published a booklet on the "Great Circus Train Wreck of 1893" in September of 1984. The address on the booklet is 1300 Ninth Ave., Altoona, PA16602. Phone # 814-946-0834. The copy I have sold for $2.50. Bob Judge, Neptune, NJ
    Reply: 17 November, 2005 - In the 1960s a two-part article about the Walter L. Main circus was printed in Bandwagon. It contains coverage of the wreck. You can locate the citation in the article index on this website. I would also recommend contacting libraries and historical societies serving the Tyrone area. The wreck is about the most famous incident in that area and is documented in quite a few photographs. Fred Dahlinger


943. Seibel Brothers Circus, 07 November, 2005 - I am looking for information on the Seibel Brothers Circus. Major Del Fontaine did the high wire act with fire batons and the like. I have a little information, handed down through the family, but I would like more, if possible. His real name was John Warning. Any asisstance would be appreciated. Thank you, Jeanna Bergman, . Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - Emil Seibel and his circus are covered on pages 110-112 of the book "Badger State Showmen" (1998) by Fred Dahlinger and Stuart Thayer. Ask your local librarian to obtain the book or pages of interest for you. The notes and background material to the chapter are in the CWM library. Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - My library does not have this book, is my only other option to purchase it? - Jeanna Bergman
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - Jeanna, ask your librarian to obtain a loan of the book on inter-library loan. If you only want the pages Fred Dahlinger stated, you can get those on inter-library loan. There may be a small charge. J. Griffin
    Reply: 11 November, 2005 - Thank you Fred Dahlinger and J. Griffin. I did contact my library and they are going to try to do the inter-library loan. Thank you so much. Jeanna


942. Shreveport, LA, retired lion tamer, 07 November, 2005 - I was in a small restaurant in Shreveport Louisiana in the early 70's. On the wall were a number of pictures of a "lion tamer". I didn't ask at the time who it was. In my old age, I'm curious. Do you know of anyone who may have had ties to Shreveport or may have gone into the restaurant business after retirement? Frank.Waters@White-Rodgers.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 10 November, 2005 - Clyde Beatty, the greatest wild animal arena star of them all, wintered his railroad circus in Shreveport the winter of 1947-48 and again in 1950-51, though he would take exception to the term "Lion Tamer." Beatty often said, "They can be trained but they can never be tamed." I would imagine these were photos he gave to local people when he wintered there. For years you could see his pictures on restaurant walls in Deming, New Mexico, where he kept the show several winters. Ree-gards, Ole Whitey (Billcar Whitey, not Snakeshow Whitey)


941. First African-American bareback rider, 06 November, 2005 - In a 1928 article in Billboard, Doc Waddell, circus press agent at the time, published an article "Some Echoes from Rosin-back Realm." He stated that the first African-American bareback rider (used the term negro at the time) was Lewis and Black, from Zanesville, Ohio. He said Lewis was apprenticed to the old Robinson Circus and did a forward somersault. He also said that Lewis performed not only on a horse, but also elk and buffalo. He also stated that another African-American, Charles Miner, who was called "Fat Barnum," was another early rider. My source is not the original article, but an article published in an Ohio newspaper. Anyone have information that confirms this information? J. Griffin. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - The mention of Lewis refers to often called "Contraband Lewis." Check Olympians under Lewis Willis. Slout
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - Just how many African American riders, such as Lewis rode horses is unknown, but Lewis in the 1873 John Robinson newspaper advertisements was illustrated dressed as a Native American and rode an elk. The Atlanta Daily New Era November 9, 1867 noted that on the John Robinson Circus "A particular noticeable feature of the performance is the Ethopean equestrian who does some as good a riding as was ever done in Atlanta. So Lewis was on the John Robinson show from 1867 to at least 1873. John Polacsek
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - Thanks, John and Slout! I'm visiting the CWM library Thursday. If I have time, I'll check on African-American riders. J. Griffin
    Reply: 12 November, 2005 - Actually I believe the first African-American circus equstrian was Master Duffee a young boy who's career lasted around 1810-1815. Check the Olympians of the Saw Dust circle link under "Dufee". Rufus Ledbetter
    Reply: 13 November, 2005 - For more of Duffee, check Thayer's Annals of the American Circus. Slout


940. Wire walker's death, 06 November, 2005 - There was a family of high wire walkers that while in on tour in Puerto Rico, the father of the family and main man, fell to his death while trying to cross from one building to another in the 1980's, after this tragedy, his son crossed and finished the show. If you can tell me the name of the family I would appreciate it very much. Thanks in anticipation. Sincerely, Walter . Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 06 November, 2005 - In March 1978, Karl Wallenda fell in crossing a wire strung between two 10 story hotels in Puerto Rico. - J. Griffin

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939. Circus Wagons, 03 November, 2005 - Would anyone tell me which were the most famous Band wagons, Parade wagons and Tableau wagons made in the Nineteenth Century? Which of these still exist (if any) and where one can view them if any are? Rufus Ledbetter . Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 04 November, 2005 - Rufus you simply must find some time to get to Baraboo Wisconsin & visit the Circus World Museum. They have sumthing like 200 perfectly resorted wagons, some of them dating back well over 100 years & once a year they bring them all out & parade them thru their really beautuful little community. This is an absolute must see for you. Danny


938. James Westlake, 03 November, 2005 - James Westlake (stage name) and his wife were in the Cole Brothers Circus sometime in the 1930's and 1940's. I believe he had a magician act. I think she did some highwire acting. I wanted to know if there might possibly be any pictures or articles referencing them. Marilyn (Dawn) Huff. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.


937. William Conrad, 02 November, 2005 - I am seeking any information on William Conrad, who either owned or performed (or both) in circuses around the early 20th century. I have no other information about him. He was the father of Edward Conrad, who was in vaudeville, a songwriter, and minor screen actor. He and Birdie Conrad performed in Vaudeville together. (If anyone happens to have any information on them, either, that would also be appreciated.) Thank you. Leslie Cummins, leslie.cummins@med.nyu.edu. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 02 November, 2005 - Check Slout's Olympians on this website for one person named William Conrad. Fred Dahlinger


936. Rowe, Australia, 30 October, 2005 - I am trying to locate information about a Mr Rowe, for my research, please. Mr Rowe was manager(?) with the American Circus, in Melbourne Australia in October 1853. Thank you, Jay. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 30 October, 2005 - This may be Joseph Andrew Rowe. Check his entry in Slout's Olympians on this website. If you have information on Rowe in Australia, you might want to post it to this discussion board. J. Griffin
    Reply: 02 November, 2005 - See Rowe, message 890. J. Griffin. Do a google search for Joseph Andrew Rowe. His papers have been published in book form. J. Griffin


935. Fossett's, Peyton, 30 October, 2005 - My mother's family worked with Fossett's circus around the 1930's. My uncle was Joey, Ireland's boy clown and my mum was a bare back riser and acrobat. I am wondering if anyone has any programmes dating back to that time or even publicity pictures/posters that may include family members? I would be most grateful for any information or assistance as to where I might be able to get such information. Incidentally, the family name was Peyton and they were frequent artists when Fossett's went to Cove annually and Joey used to lead the circus into town. Many thanks, Susan. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.


934. Vaudeville Historical Society?, 30 October, 2005 - There have been many comments in this forum about circus acts that also worked in vaudeville. I had an Aunt who worked in vaudeville in the 1920's and '30s. She once filled in with the Orton's wire act (family related to Buckles). Does anyone know of a vaudeville historical society, museum or library collection that I could contact regarding my Aunt's career? Jim Cole. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 31 October, 2005 - There is a collection of vaudeville booking records at one of the universities in Iowa. Some searching might reveal the location of it. You'll likely find vaudeville documentation in larger theater collections, such as New York Public Library and Harvard University. The other possibility is to do key word searches through newspapers [like New York Times, on ProQuest], or the newspaper resources that Judy periodically accesses and posts, or scanning through the weekly issues of Billboard, New York Clipper, Variety and other show journals that carried vaudeville news. Variety has a benefit in that they reviewed acts and made relevant comments about their stage quality, uniqueness and earning power to managers. If your aunt's name wasn't used in the billing, finding it will prove that much more difficult. Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 31 October, 2005 - Keith-Albee Collection, University of Iowa Libraries, Iowa City, Iowa. Online finding aid for it at www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec%2Dcoll/MSC/ToMsc400/MsC356/msc356.html. Information on the collection: www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/MSC/ToMsc400/MsC356/kibler.htm. I visited this collection in 2004. The staff was one of the most helpful I've experienced. It can be very time consuming to work in the collection, depending on how much information you have. J. Griffin


933. Alec Todd, trapeze, 28 October, 2005 - Alec Todd (approx. 1884-1978) was a trapeze flyer in a circus and was from London. He was in the Ringling and Barnum circuses in his career (I believe he retired from flying at approx. age 30?). He ended up in America eventually, maybe even by that age of 18. I am doing some research on him, he told me lots of stories when I was a lad. I am curious if others might have info on him. scott. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 21 April, 2006 - Scott – I ran across your post while researching Alec Todd myself. I have a bit of information and am looking for more while researching my family history. Alec was married to my grandmother’s sister in the early 1920’s and presumably met her while the circus wintered in Bloomington, IL. She passed away in 1926. We have sketchy information afterwards. Curious what you are looking for and what you might be able to share? John Weis.


932. Hashash, 28 October, 2005 - Hashash was a Champion sword-twirler with the Barnum and Bailey Circus in the early 1900's, around 1910-1920. His name was Hagop Surabian, but his stage name was "Hashash". He migrated to the United States from Armenia and soon joined the circus. He had two daughters, one lived in New Jersey, and the other lived in Providence. I have a couple of pictures of him, and I have his swords. We were never told exactly when or how he passed away, and were told he was probably buried someplace in Florida, something I have been unable to verify. I am desperate to find out what I can, anything at all! Maybe there is someone there who knew of him, pictures, place of burial, stories, anything. I am his great-grandson, my name is Armen Janigian, I live in Providence, RI. My email address is asjhye@aol.com. Thank You for whatever you can do to assist. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 28 October, 2005 - A search of newspaperarchive.com turned up: Vaudeville 1908, Hashash - A novelty act. Champion Howling and Whirling Dervish from Asia Minor. 1909 Hashash from Asia Minor. First appeared in this country at Chicago World's Fair in 1893. Been in demand by expositions, vaudeville shows, circuses. Act of whirling. Has whirled for more than six hours without a stop, using swords and cymbals and placing the swords on all parts of his body while whirling. J. Griffin
    Reply: 29 October, 2005 - You might find some information and perhaps an image of your great-grandfather in the couriers and route books of the Barnum & Bailey show that were issued 1903-1910. He was likely listed as a whirling dervish, with perhaps his actual name in route book rosters. Barnum & Bailey was elsewhere, in Europe, 1898-1902. Fred Dahlinger


931. CHS's SPEC & Bandwagon, 27 October, 2005 - In an earlier message (#913) I had posted 5 Q's, one of which was about the 20th anniversary issue of Bandwagon. In a reply from Judy (who by the way does a spectaular job w/this site, ie. the massive Sturtevant database w/more than 6000 entries alone and others). She stated that she belived a publication titled 'SPEC' was the predesessor to Bandwagon. As time permits would someone be able to state the actual name & date of very first issue and secondly what is the accual published date of transition from last issue of SPEC to first issue of Bandwagon? Respectfully, Danny McLean. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 27 October, 2005 - Danny, I'm actually trying to figure out all the various titles used for the CHS publications before Bandwagon. There is some new information on the "About CHS" page. It was titled "SPEC," "Hobby-Bandwagon" at times. Some issues or additional publications were titled "Note Sheet" at least in 1942, 1943 and 1944. But in 1943 it was titled "Bandwagon." The volume and numbers may have been inconsistent during the early years. J. Griffin


930. Zeke Lamont, 27 October, 2005 - Searching for Zeke Lamont, he worked as a clown for Ringling Brothers, he left a trunk at the Colony Cinema in Marietta,Ohio. The newest picture of him is from 1951. What happened to him, or do you know if this was his real name? rollom@peoplepc.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 14 October, 2006 - Hello, I was researching the net looking for something on Zeke Lamont when I stumbled upon your post. I have many glossy 8 x10's and many snapshots of various circus performers as my late father in law was involved in the circus for many years. He was a very good friend of "Bozo" Zeke Lamont. I remember him being very upset about "Bozo the Clown" because as far as he and the people that he associated with, Zeke truly was the original "Bozo". Most of the photo are signed and many refer to him as either "Zeke Lamont" or Bozo" Zeke Lamont. These photos are from the 50's and 60's and although I'm not familiar with the correct jargon, I believe it was here in Ohio in what was probably the "Ohio circuit". I not only have photos of Zeke, but have photos that were given to him by other performers that were signed by the other performers, To "Bozo", Zeke Lamont or just Zeke Lamont. I will ask my neighbor who was my father in laws neighbor for many years if he knows if Zeke Lamont was truly his name. Debbie

    Reply: 03 December, 2006 - I would truly like to gain copies of this informaion on Zeke "Bozo" Lamont. as I am working on a Bozo history project as well as some information on performers who used the "BOZO" name. Please help. Tom Holbrook. email; bozo_history@yahoo.com Thank you.

    Reply: 10 Aug 2007 - Yes I knew Zeke Bozo Lamont. He ended up in my town when he could no longer drive. We became good friends. He got me intersted in clowning which I had no interest in before. In the last 49 years I have become full time and have done clown and magic shows in 6 countries and though the US. I owe it all to Bozo. I would love to talk to "Debbie" that replyed she had pictures of him. I only have one. I have his obituary and the history of the last few years of his life. He passed in 1981. I would love to talk to anyone about Zeke Bozo Lamont. His real name was Herbert Shellhammer which he hated. Paul Ricksecker, Hoby Tyler, hobyt@juno.com

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929. John L.Sullivan, A Circus Act?, 27 October, 2005 - I recently had read a circus book that mentioned that the famous heavyweight pugilist, John L. Sullivan,(who is universally considered the first modern Heavyweight Champion of the World) appeared with the Adam Forepaugh Show in 1887. Would anyone know about this? What did he do in it? I was wondering if the author may have been confused with the famous boxing elephant, "John L. Sullivan" (trained by Eph Thompson), who was with the Adam Forepaugh show also around that time. Reportly the boxing elephant sparred with another boxing elephant,and knocked him out with the two performaces each day. So was it the boxing human John L. Sullivan or the boxing elephant John L. Sullivan (or perhaps both) that appeared with the circus? K.C. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 30 October, 2005 - Check for John L. Sullivan in Slout's Olympians, on this website. Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 03 November, 2005 - There was a circus in 1888 called sometimes the John L. Sullivan Circus, sometimes the Doris & Sullivan Circus. John L. demonstrated bag punching etc. The show was K.O.'d in the same year. Stuart Thayer.
    Reply: 09 November, 2005 - In his 1892 autobiography "I can lick any sonofabitch in the House" John L. Sullivan writes (page 130) he travelled with Lester's and Allen's Minstrels September 20, 1885 until May 1886, 21 weeks at a salary of 500 dollars per week. After that he became part owner from January 1886 to May 1886. John L Sullivan was "posing as statues of ancient and modern gladiators".


928. Fernandez, 27 October, 2005 - I'm trying to research E K & Rose Fernandez in circus & vaudeville. One of their children was Kane Scott Fernandez. Any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated. Kelly J Cole. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 25 February, 2006 - EK (Eddie) Fernandez died in 1970, his son Kane Scott Fernandez died Jan 2001, Rose Fernandez died in the 1990's. You can get a lot of information by looking at Honolulu Star Bulletin and Honolulu Advertiser's website as Rose gave interviews to both. There is also information on the company's 100 anniversaey in 2003 in those newspapers. The company's website is www.ekfernandez.com . Kareen


927. Ringling Bros. Circus Posters, 26 October, 2005 - My grandfather, Leo Rechenmacher worked 41 years (1904-1941) as an engraver for the Central Printing and Engraving Company in Chicago, Illinois. While employed with the company, he was said to have drawn and engraved quite a few posters for the Ringling Bros. circus. Are any of these posters identified in any way by the artist or engraver ("LR" perhaps) and where is the best place to find some of these original posters? Thanks, Chuck Spinner, spinlake@earthlink.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.


926. Cirkus Blumenfeld, 25 October, 2005 - Questions: are those Steins connected? Emanuel Blumenfeld (circus Magdeburg, Germany) b 1 march 1811 Bremeke by Göttingen was married to: Jeanette Stein b 25 april 1831 Landau, Bayern, Germany. Alfred Stein b abt 1882 maried to: ? Blumenfeld son: Leopold (Leo) Stein earlier fiancee to Alice Goldkette b 1917 Sweden, d 1995 USA. I am gratefully for any informations, jetgold@webspeed.dk. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 16 November, 2006 - Alfred Stein married to a Blumenfeld, son: Leopold Stein (engaged with Alice Goldkette) informations about them? jetgold@webspeed.dk


925. Kinsbergen, 25 October, 2005 - From Natasha Gerson I got the informations, that the family Blanes had a kleinzirkus some married Kinsbergen with a bigger circus. The first Kinsbergen was Leon Kinsbergen who gave his first performance 1801. Julius Kinsbergen b 1837 Oostende married to Heintje - children: 1. Karel b 1861 2. Manus b 1866 3. Elisabeth b 1 mai 1868 S gravenhage, Netherland, d 5 feb 1965 Samstads förs., Sweden. 4. Flora. But in the book: Cirkus og Gřglerslćgter af Anders Enevig, Denmark, 2004 - page 64 stand: Elisabeth Kinsbergen from 21 july 1944 in germain concentration camp Theresienstadt dead: 5 feb 1965 Sweden, daughter of: Mecanicus Jacob Kinsbergen born abt 1820 and Rachel Eliazar Boas. Elisabeth Kinsbergen married to Carl Blumenfeld. Now we have 2 different parents to Elisabeth Kinsbergen - can anybody help me, jetgold@webspeed.dk. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 16 November, 2006 - Kinsbergen/Blanes have somebody informations about the families? jetgold@webspeed.dk

    Reply: 01 May 2007 - thank you amsterdam for contact me. jetgold@webspeed.dk


924. 2 Hemispheres Bandwagon, 23 October, 2005 - I'm looking for information about the 2 Hemispheres bandwagon's move from the Palmer School's campus in Davenport Iowa to the Circus Hall of Fame in Sarasota FL. I think this took place in 1955. I looked through the White Tops index and found an article written in volume #28, issue #6 by Norm Birchall. I have no idea where to locate this article. I have a copy of the booklet put out by Dr. Palmer and the Singing Wheels book. Any suggestions or help is welcome. Joe Foley, bonesdc@aol.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 24 October, 2005 - Be careful in any use of the Palmer book as the pre-Palmer history of the wagon, as presented therein, is almost entirely incorrect. The wagon did not tour Europe nor was it built for P. T. Barnum. It was built for the 1903 American tour of Barnum & Bailey, the contract established by Barnum & Bailey, Ltd., led by James A. Bailey. The cost was about $4400. Jumbo died in 1885, many years before the wagon existed. There is only a small trap door on the roof of the wagon, inadequate to be used for the storage of any material. Other errors could be identified. The account of the wagon's fabrication in Fred Fried's "Artists In Wood" is considerably more accurate. The wagon was constructed by Sebastian, outfitted with carvings supplied by Samuel Robb, with the possibility that work was subcontracted to the Spanjer Bros. and other carving shops. The documents that would confirm design by Ogden have yet to be located or published. Further information about the 1903 parades can be found in a "Bandwagon" article about the "Golden Age of Chivalry." Fred Dahlinger


923. John Zilinskas, Ashton's Circus, 23 October, 2005 - My name is Algis Zilinskas. I would like to contact my uncle, John Zilinskas, Ashton's Circus. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

    Reply: 24 May, 2006 - Jonaas Zilinskas has left the circus and is living in Corindi, he is moving back to Lithuania shortly. Julia Iles

    Reply: 07 October, 2006 - Jonaas has been living with us since April 03 on our farm at Corindi Beach NSW Australia. In June this year he left to travelled to Lithuania to be with his family there. I have an address if you would like. Just wondering why you would like to contact him. Kind regards, Vicki Blackadder


922. Diving Ponies, 23 October, 2005 - Does anyone know about Joe Smith and his diving ponies approx around 1930. jsalbie@netusa1.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 01 December, 2005 - I have some information on this subject. My mother-in-law is related to Joe Smith. What information are you looking for? I might be able to help you. I am using a friends computer, so if you reply please use Message for Stephanie in the subject line. This way she will not think it is spam and delete the message. God Bless, Stephanie Bond
    Reply: 07 December, 2005 - My uncle was related to him some how i think it was his uncle he ran away when he was about 15 and traveled with him for awhile he was 76 when he past away his name was Edmund Hulet. Joe and Susie Fowler
    Reply: 14 February, 2006 - My Grandfather was Edmund Hulet and he did dive ponies off of a platform. As a little girl I grew up hearing many entertaining stories about the circus and how my Grandfather ran away to join. He later on went into the Air Force, married and had three sons. I was his firstborn grandchild and the only girl for many years. He was an amazing man and I would be happy to learn aas much as possible about him and answer any questions you might have. Nicole "Hulet" Moore

    Reply: 11 March, 2006 - Well he is my uncle, my mothers brother and I'm his nephew. Your dad is my cousin theirs lance steve and eddy now deceased. My name is Joe Fowler.

    Reply: 13 April, 2006 - Joe, I am Eddie's daughter Nikki. Grandpa was a really great guy. I have trouble keeping track of everyone in the family. Who's son are you? Nicole L. Moore


921. Appaloosas, 22 October, 2005 - I am looking for Appaloosa's that have performed in Circus Liberty Acts, Trick and/or Trick Riding Horses, both then and now. Would like their names, and owners names if possible. Any information will be greatly appreciated Thanks! Pat Mefferd. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 22 October, 2005 - Send me some more information regarding your interest in circus Appaloosas, ( book, magazine article? ) and I will pass this on to a friend who is a well known Appaloosa trainer, and has appeared in many circuses. Also, you may check E-bay or Amazon for a book called "Performing Horses" by Charles P. Fox (written in late 1950's). Jim Cole, jscolecircus@webtv.net
    Reply: 23 October, 2005 - There was an old appaloosa on the Ringling Show in 1955-56 who used to lead the Elephants from the train to the circus lot. His name I believe was Charley. He also led the Elephants back to the train from the lot. He had no other duties, just that one. Erny Karoly
    Reply: 06 November, 2005 - Hello Jim! I have been a Equine Pedigree Researcher for the last 40 years - doing Appaloosa, Quarter Horses, Thoroughbreds, Paints, Pinto, and much more. I have bred and owned Appaloosas, Quarter Horses, Thoroughbreds and Paints. I am now retired, and writing a couple of books. One is almost complete and will be available around the 15th of this month.
        I am including any and all Appaloosa's that have worked in the circus, rodeo, movies, etc. Some have names and pedigree's, some don't, and that's OK, I just want to give these wonderful horses some additional "applause" for the "equine" public.
        The actor Slim Pickens (Rodeo Clown) used Appaloosa's in his clown acts, as well as Wilbur Plaughter, etc. I grew up with these guys in a manner of speaking, as my StepFather was a stuntman in most of the John Wayne westerns, and he trained "falling horses". He was inducted into the Stuntmans Hall of Fame in 1982, long after his tragic fall from a horse, in the John Wayne/John Ford "The Horse Soldiers".
        Also, I am a distant relative of Harry H Tammen, co-owner in the Floto Dog & Pony Show, later re-named the Sells-Floto Circus. I never knew him, but my mother did and always called him Uncle Harry. Thru Tammens circus, who I believe headquartered in Trinidad, Colo, one of his circus horses that he acquired was bred to a very famous Quarter Horse breeder, and that produced a Blue Roan Appaloosa, who turned into what some call a Leopard, white with contrasting spots. I am trying to prove a link with this horse. Some have called him BARNUM'S FLASH, and that would indicate Barnum's Circus, and may well have been that Tammen gained possession of him, or had someone working for him who had BARNUM'S FLASH.
        Any information your friend might be willing to share with me would be greatly appreciated. Pat Mefferd
    Reply: 06 November, 2005 - Erny Karoly, Thanks so much for that information regarding "Charley". Could you possibly describe him, was he white with spots over his body, or what is called a white blanket (no spots) or spotted blanket, or maybe a roan with spots, etc. How did you come to know about "Charley"? Thanks! Pat
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - About "Charlie" I saw him lead the elephants while I was with Ringling. This was in 1955, I was only 11 yrs old at the time. I only remember that he was sort of a gray or dirty white with reddish brown spots. He was not very flashy or pretty. He was very good natured as I can remember. He calmed the elephants and they trusted him and followed him willingly. I also knew a man who had a reptile park in Sarasota, Fl, His name was Jim Mitchell. Called his reptile show " Texas Jim's." He worked with my father at Circus Sarrasani in South America in the 1930's. If you have any knowledge of him please let me know. My Grandfather worked on the "Carl Hagenbeck circus in 1905-06. I would love to have some info on that? Thanks Erny
    Reply: 11 November, 2005 - One of the best known performing Appaloosa horses today is "Chief Bearpaw", who performs a comedy "drunk horse" routine trained and presented by Gaylord Maynard. The act is currently featured at Arabian Nights diner theatre in Kissimmee, Fl. The act has also been featured on many Shrine Circus dates in recent years. Contact me directly, and I'll put you in touch wih Gaylord. jscolecircus@webtv.net, Jim Cole


920. Chiko, Gorilla, 22 October, 2005 - Would anyone know what became of Barnum & Bailey's famous "Gorilla" named Chiko that appeared with the 1893 menagerie? There was a great amount of discussion in the press at that time in that Chiko was actually a large Chimpanzee and not really a gorilla. (A large mature male Chimpanzee can stand 5 ft 7 inches tall and weigh over 200 lbs.) James Bailey insisted Chiko was a gorilla,however a famous African explorer said it was actually a Chimpanzee. apemonsterman@yahoo.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 24 October, 2005 - Chiko was a chimpanzee - no doubt about it. He was first advertised as a black orangutan and perhaps also as a gorilla. Showmen were eager to capitalize on the then prevalent image of the gorilla as a giant, savage and ferocious animal, by far the largest of the great apes. As we now know, that is an unfair personality portrait of the gorilla. Much of that false information is due to the 1860s writings of naturalist/adventurer Paul B. du Chaillu.
          Chiko arrived in New York from Portugal in April 1893 and immediately joined the Barnum & Bailey circus. He toured throughout that season. In December of that year a female chimp named Johanna arrived in New York and was first shown in the Central Park zoo. She went on tour with Barnum & Bailey in 1894 along with Chiko. Much was made of the pair in the advertising. However, Chiko died in Ohio in mid-season 1894.
          Johanna continued as a star of the Barnum & Bailey circus. She was taken by it on the celebrated European zoo and died when the circus was in Nuremberg, Germany on 21 October 1900.
          As information the first real gorilla ever seen alive in USA arrived at Boston on 2 May 1897 but died on May 8th. It's remains were sent to Cornell Univ. A photograph of this first gorilla was published in the New York Tribune for Jan 2, 1905. There was never a circus gorilla in USA until Ringling-Barnum obtained John Daniel in 1921 but he lived only a short time while the circus was at Madison Square Garden. A second true gorilla was with RBBB in 1924. Named Sultan or John Darnel II, he was successfully shown throughout that season and then returned to England with his owner. Richard J. Reynolds, III
    Reply: 06 November, 2005 - Curiously in the book, THE WAYS OF THE CIRCUS by George Conklin (who was the boss animal man/menagerie superintendent of the Barnum&Bailey circus 1888-1907). He refers to both Chiko and Johanna as "gorilla's, pp.200-205. "The biggest animal of the monkey kind which I ever saw was another gorilla which we had and called Chico. He was chiefly interesting for his size, being five feet and two inches tall and weighing at least a hundred pounds." George Conklin also tells of an incident when Chiko somehow got loose from his cage, when there was grounds of people around the circus grounds. "He suddenly appeared,running all around the menagerie and letting out yells that would make an Indian war whoop seem quiet by comparison." The big ape was making his way toward George Conklin, who managed to get away by getting between two elephants, and somehow manage to get Chiko back into his cage. Rufus Ledbetter

    Reply: 06 March, 2007 - I read where a Dr. A. Keith had written a scientific paper discribing and figuring Johanna which was thought to be a rare Kulu-Kamba (the most gorilla like sub-species of Chimpanzee) reportly Johanna erect standing height was four and a half feet tall,and exhibited heavy brow ridges and the presence of large folds at sides of its nostrils (which are absent in the average Chimpanzee). Reportly when Johanna died in Nuremberg Germany in 1900, Bailey ordered boss animal man George Conklin to mutilate the carcass and to bury it in a secret location. Has the burial site been found since? Also would anyone know in which journel Dr. A Keith's paper was published? I wonder if the Mystery Congo ape,the Bili Ape is the same species. Rufus Ledbetter

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919. Miss Lala/Olga, 22 October, 2005 - I am looking for any information on Miss Lala, an aerialist and strongwoman of France also known as Miss Olga - including photographs, and primary resources, and sources for other biographical information. Born 1858. Painted by Edgar Degas: Miss Lala at Le Cirque Fernando 1879. Heidi Durrow, heididurrow@hotmail.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 24 October, 2005 - You might start a search by checking Toole-Stott's five volume bibliography, "Circus and Allied Arts," for entries. There's also the two-volume history by Henri Thetard that can be found in some libraries. There are surely some French circus histories that will mention her. You might try contacting relevant collections in Paris that document performing and popular arts. Dominique Jando, with the San Francisco School of Circus Arts, is well versed in French circus history and would be a good contact. George Speaight mentions her only in passing, as the subject of a Degas work. Fred Dahlinger


918. Nazis & circus operations, 22 October, 2005 - I read once that in pre-war times, Nazis sent spies to study the moving operations of the circus. Because they could move with such efficiency and such force, this was something that interested them greatly. If anyone has ANY information or leads on this whatsoever, it would be incredibly appreciated. Please feel free to email me at gbheffernan@yahoo.com. Thanks so much! Gavin Heffernan. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 23 October, 2005 - I have often heard that the U.S. Military spent time studying the logistical operations of our larger railroad circuses during WWII. There were a number of equally efficient circuses in Germany at the time, which may have been where the Nazis centered their attention. As far as Nazi spies on American circuses, I suppose that was possible. Jim Cole
    Reply: 24 October, 2005 - It's possible that this may be something of an urban legend that bounces around the Internet. There are references to the German army staff observing the operations of Barnum & Bailey when they toured Germany during their 1898-1902 tour [mentioned in Harvey L. Watkins route book of the tour, also by Barbara Tuchman in her book "Proud Tower."]. There are domestic references to U. S. military staff observing other circuses and wild west operations in the US and a photograph or two survives showing military men posed with a show train (Al G. Barnes) and I believe Gen. Pershing positioned with Buffalo Bill. In the literature similar references can be found for the time period of circa 1895-1915. I believe that Robert J. Loeffler may have researched the topic and published something about it. Check the "Bandwagon" and "White Tops" references on this website for articles that he authored. Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 27 October, 2005 - Actually it goes back a lot further than that. I read in a old book the General Robert E. Lee was studying how the circusus moved around the country including on rails back during the Civil War. apemonsterman@yahoo.com
    Reply: 28 October, 2005 - Military study of circus activity before or during the Civil War would be of interest as it would reflect on the reduced scope "railroad shows" that were then the rule. They were essentially what we'd term "gilley shows" today, stripped of the menagerie and to a large degree the parade, to the bare essentials. The flat car shows, the marvels of organization that brought later attention from military observers, were a later development, 1872 and later. Perhaps you can provide the reference? Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 29 October, 2005 - Mr. Dahlinger,I was going by memory of something I read a while ago when I posted that comment, but I just rembered the source. It was the 1925 book Wagon Show Days by Gil Robinson, Days (page 147). Actually in re-reading it was shortly after the Civil War when the John Robinson show was playing in Lexington Virginia, that General Robert E. Lee came out with a number of students to visit the show and asked numerous questions, particularly about the transportation and how forage was procured for the horses and food for the employess. Also as far as the Germans studying the Barnum & Bailey show when they played Berlin in March 1901. In his book Ways of the Circus,(pp277-278) George Conklin (the menagerie superintentent) mentions how the Kaiser sent groups of men to study taking down tents and moving equipment, reportly they took numerous notes. apemonsterman@yahoo.com
    Reply: 03 November, 2005 - You are researching one of the great myths in circus history. It was not the Germans, but the French army that first observed the set-up of Barnum & Bailey at Sedan, France. A practical demonstration was arranged, in which the 36th Regiment of Field Artillery was entrained. Their actions were critiqued by McCaddon and Bailey. This is all reported in the 11 October 1902 Billboard. Stuart Thayer.
    Reply: 05 November, 2005 - Here is a additional source of info(other then the previously mentioned book by George Conklin published 1921),that refers to the observations by the Germans. It appears in the September.15.1923 issue of The Billboard. Reminences of Old Circus Days by George M. Bates (the Barnum & Bailey Elephant Superintentent) "The Kaiser used to ride by our Show on horse-back every afternoon while we were in Berlin. We were there for three weeks. No doubt he got some pointers loading big guns and larger field pieces on cars for transportation by watching our show load and unload. We showed in most of the big towns that were prominent in the late war." note - The War they were both referring to was World War I (1914-1918). Also for the historically challenged, the German Worker's Party wasn't formed until about 10 years later. Rufus Ledbetter
    Reply: 06 November, 2005 - The most well-researched article I've read on the topic is Robert J. Loeffler, "The Influence of the Circus On European Armys," Bandwagon, Vol. 47, No. 4 (July-August), 2003, pp. 3-23. Worth ordering the back issue. - J. Griffin
    Reply: 06 November, 2005 - Before Barnum & Bailey departed for Europe, their methodologies were already studied by the U. S. Army. Cleveland Moffett wrote the following in "How the Circus Is Put Up and Taken Down" in McClure's Magazine, June 1895 [Vol. V, No. 1]. "A few years ago, when Barnum & Bailey's Circus was at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, a number of United States army officers were detailed to study its methods of transportation, with a view of adopting them in the artillery service. They spent a week watching the circus, watching the loading and unloading of the train, and in their official report they stated that they could not too strongly recommend the introduction into the United States army of many methods and devices which they found brought to perfection. Once, in Boston, when the State militia were trying vainly to unload six cars of cannon, an appeal was made to Mr. Bailey. Within an hour, Byron Rose, the manager of transportation for the Barnum & Bailey show, with a gang of twenty-one men, had accomplished the task." Dates at Leavenworth, Kansas include September 28, 1892 and September 12, 1888. Boston dates were more frequent. Local newspapers, route book and government docs could all be checked for further data. One can also check Robert J. Loeffler "The Influence of the Circus on European Armys (sic)," Bandwagon, July-August 2003, pages 3-23. Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 17 November, 2005 - Courtney Ryley Cooper's biography of Annie Oakley (1927, page 236) references her observation that the Prussian studied the movements of Buffalo Bill's Wild West in Europe. These remarks relate to the tours of 1890 and/or 1891, the only two wherein she accompanied Cody's traveling outfit in Germany. Fred Dahlinger
    Reply: 13 December, 2005 - Recent articles on showmen's transport in KIRMES-REVUE, a German fairground magazine points out that shows were moving by rail in Germany earlier than they were here. Those myths of the German's studying American shows for quick movements is just thin air. Large fairground rides were on the continent long before here and being moved first by boat and then by rail. Tunnels on rail ways influenced wagon construction: i.e. gave rise to the construction of higher rounded shape roofs on circus and carnival wagons. Later on telescoping wagons for giraffes. The German showmen came up with various solutions for loading and unloading show wagons and numerous operational methods - some which you will still see being used if you watch Circus Knie, Circus Roncalli, or Circus Americano - the remaining Euro rail circuses. No American Circus - or rail carnival with the exception of World's Finest Shows a.k.a. Wallace Bros. Shows in Canada moved as fast or as efficient as European rail shows. Circus Knie rolls into the station at 6 pm. at every new town. It is all on the lot within a couple of hours and back on the train when they move no later than 1:00 a.m. Al Stencell


917. How many circuses, 22 October, 2005 - I saw a newspaper article recently that there are about 300-400 circuses in Germany and about 20-30 in smaller countries like the Netherlands. These numbers struck me as high for the population sizes of these countries, and I am interested in knowing how many circuses there are presently operating in the US. Can anyone tell me please? Thanks. Ken Gilbert. kpgilbert@sbcglobal.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 22 October, 2005 - There are never 20-30 circuses in the Netherlands, and 300-400 circuses in Germany is a bit steep too. There are lots of circus and circussy ensembles and outfits, but proper, staple circuses in Holland would be about 10-12 at the very most, depending on your definitions. Some of which some are dormant or almost dormant, and artists flit from one to the other. Some circuses are circuses in name only, and just a tent and a name or even just a name and a postbox. Sometimes the same circus has one name on one side of the border and another on the other. Sometimes a Dutch circus is in fact a Czech circus transformed to the tent of a dormant Dutch circus for the season. Anything is possible really. You can't compare most European circuses with American ones, in size either, I don't think. A lot of German and Dutch circuses are a family with two or three trucks and two or three other families or couples as 'extra engagiert'. Also there are quite a few circuses who tour for six weeks in the summer only, and acts interchange with the routes taken. In the Dutch circus world its safe to say that everybody knows absolutely everybody, unless they are artists new to the profession or country. There is a very sharp divide between classic circus, and thus 'circus stock' in both artists, direction and workers, and 'new' circus, that even crosses through circus. In Dutch/German/Belgian circus there are several historic 'bloodgroups' that work basically around each other, and all three or four hold circuses that are deeply connected. Circus A will be related to Circus D en H, while circus B has connections with C and E. Never do the two mingle. This overflows into most countries of European circus, where the connections widen, but don't change. That's sort of how it works, and always has. Natasha Gerson
    Reply: 13 December, 2005 - I can tell you that there are a lot more circuses in Germany than in the U.S.!! In the 1990's there were still a 150 small-medium size family shows and a couple of dozen large circuses. I would say that there are maybe 75 shows in the country presently. France has enjoyed a re-birth in circus over the last decade and there are another 20-30 shows there - many small ones playing one day stands. For a while there were lots of small Dutch and Belgium Circuses but they have thinned out recently. Holland was terrific for shows ten years back and was over-played; many small circuses from Germany coming in. This was similar to what happened in Ireland fifteen years back. A country that had at best 6-8 shows now had fifteen ploughing around. Switzerland still has 8 or more shows but less than it use to have ten years ago. You do not see shows from outside Switzerland coming into the country like you do in the rest of Europe. The shows there must have some kind of protection from the government. Holland has always been wide open. Denmark, Norway and Sweden have three or four shows each. Business has been up and down in Europe the last few seasons and the German economy is not as strong as it was ten years ago. Two years ago shows in Holland were doing lousy. The same in German where for the first time you could walk up and get day of show tickets for Circus Roncalli. At one time small circuses in Germany tended to stick to one particular geographical area. You would find shows that never left Bavaria for example. Krone the largest tours areas on a five year rotation. Al Stencell


916. Sells & Gray, John Frazier, 1969, 21 October, 2005 - In 1969, I worked on the Sells and Gray Circus, as a candy butcher. This was probably the greatest year of my life. I worked for John Frazier and his wife Hazel. I worked with another candy butcher named Whip and really became good friends with him. I was just wondering if anyone knows where I can get in touch with either Whip or John. Thanks alot, Bob Jones, Castel Creek, NY, rjones19@stny.rr.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 29 November, 2005 - My father John Frazier can be reached at fraziersr@yahoo.com, Regards, John T Frazier
    Reply: 02 December, 2005 - Thank you, John


915. Gottlieb Rasch, 21 October, 2005 - Has anyone heard of Gottlieb Rasch being a barrel rider in the circus? He came over from Germany in 1905, I don't know anything past then. Thank you, Joanie Rasch, jk845266@aol.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.


914. Hartford fire, 21 October, 2005 - I have been rereading the haunting book Circus Fire. If almost everyone except the paying customer knew about the firetrap tent, why wasn't Ringling prevented from using it? I love the circus and memories of the Big One from the late 1940s and early 1950s are brought back to life everytime I watch the movie The Greatest Show On Earth. If my question brings up any bad memories I am so sorry. I just had to ask for historical purposes as the book hinted yet didn't answer why RBB&B was allowed to have a mobile firetrap. Sincerely, Craig. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 22 October, 2005 - I haven't read the book but it is common knowledge that the military used all fireproofing products for the war effort. There is also an article coming out in the CFA periodical, the White Tops, by the fire marshall who spent thousands of hours over the years searching for answers and clues and eventually determining the real truth behind the tragedy. The Ringling management was made the scapegoats and a couple went to prison without even getting a trial. Look for the White Tops article for 100% accurate information on this matter. Bob Cline
    Reply: 22 October, 2005 - Bob: I appreciate your reply and look forward to the White Tops article. However, Robert Ringling could have obtained the fireproof material and waffled. As Art Concello who was running the Clyde Beatty show obtained the material after California refused the show to perform without the applied material. Regardless of accident or arson, the tent should have been banned until it was treated with the fireproof material. Craig
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - Wax on tents: In reply to the fire issue. The tents were usually treated with a kind of wax to make it water proof. The circus was sued for around 3 million dollars (1940's money). They paid every cent. They could have filed for bankruptcy, as is done today. Under great hardship they paid the $3 million. Fires was not a very common thing with circuses so, no one anticipated what happened in Hartford. Erny Karoly


913. Bailey, 21 October, 2005 - 1. Frederick H. Bailey. Who was he & why did James adopt his surname rather than keeping his own (McGinnis)?
2. 20th Anniversary issue of Bandwagon. September-October, 1959 issue of the Bandwagon known as the Twentieth Anniversay issue. If 1957 was premier year of publication would this notice be one of those historically treasured typos? [See message No. 604]
3. In 1998 & again in 1999 Richard J. Reynolds III wrote a 2 part series about camels. On page 30 of Part 2 (1999) he mentions that next installment (?) he would tell about the camels of the western mining operations & explore the subject of camels w/the circuses of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Cannot find a 3rd part or installment. [See message No. 621]
4. Article "Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, The Blue Unit train, The First Twenty Years". Ttalks about Irvin & Israel Feld planning for their 100th Anniversary Edition (1970). They chose to go back in time to 1870, rather than 1872 the year that PTB first launched his train. What might have been their thinking for choosing 1870 instead of 1872? [See message No. 825]
5. 200 Years of Circus History on 50 Silver Medallions. Announcement by Hamilton Mint & CWM that first 5 or 6 medallions would be available this summer (1974). Does anyone know if the medallions were ever minted? [See message No. 849]
Q's 2-5 were posted earlier this year but so far no one has replied. Danny. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 21 October, 2005 - If you take a look at the Bandwagon articles online on this website, there is one from 1940 - SPEC (Bandwagon), Vol. 1, No. 4, 1940. Bandwagon was first titled SPEC. I don't know for certain, but I would guess that Vol. 1, No. 1 of SPEC was published in 1939. J. Griffin
    Reply: 21 October, 2005 - In response to your first inquiry, if you go to the Olympians of the Sawdust Circle, now on this website, you will find an entry for Fred H. Bailey to answer your question. Arthur Saxon wrote an extended paper about James A. Bailey's origins that was printed in Bandwagon about 1996-1998. You can find it on the Bandwagon article index on this website and order a back copy.
    Regarding the third installment of the Reynolds camel paper, if it's not listed in the index on this website, then it's safe to conclude that it has not yet been completed.
    For question 3, the CHS was founded in 1939. The current series of Bandwagon publication commenced in 1957.
    Regarding question 4, anniversaries are celebrated in different years, according to the way people count. Some celebrate the actual 100th year, others celebrate them in what others would say is year 101, and so on. The 100th year after the founding of the Barnum show in 1871 would have been 1970. Others might say that the coming together of the partnership in the fall of 1870 was celebrated in 1970.
    Question 5 would be best directed to either the issuing firm, if it still exists, or the collaborating institution. You might monitor sales outlets, such as ebay, where such materials would be sold. Fred Dahlinger


912. Ringling circa 1940, 20 October, 2005 - I have 72 clown pictures, 27 circus scenes from Ringlings' circus about 1940. Mr. Jackie LeClaire helped me identify almost all of them, but since then I have been unable to find a source of information on any of their lives. Here is a list of names of all the people who were identified: Arnie "Red" Honkola, Antoinet Concello, Roland Tiebar (seal trainer), Hugo Schmidt (elephant trainer), Carl Lenari, Arthur Konyet, Dorita Konyut, Maria Konyut, Kitty Clark, Ward Bell Flying Act, Singalee (The Fireproof Man), Elle Bradna, Cliff Hartman, 1944 clown called "Bubbles", Paul Wengel, Henry Bedeau, Lou Nagy, Frank "Dutch" Lully, Paul Jung, Paul Jerome, Duffy McQuade, Otto Griebling, Charlie Bell, Felix Adler. These photos were taken by a local artist,and since I recieved them I have been totally intrigued by her and the subjects of the pictures. These turn out to be the ones she painted from. Thank you for any help you can give me. pete1853@insightbb.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.


911. Preservation, 20 October, 2005 - What is the best way to preserve my hand bill dated 1854. I have it under that's dated glass right now. Will that work? I also have a hand book dated 1849 called a sketch of the life of Tom Thumb. Is more like a small hand book that tells what he does in his show? How do I preserve it? It is a little ragged but pages are intact how do I preserve it. jsalbie@netusa1.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 20 October, 2005 - Many art supply stores carry a line of products for the preservation of old documents. The most important thing is to mount such a document on an acid free surface such as foam board. There are also special acid free tapes available for repairing small tears. Some circus poster collectors use a company called "Posters Plus" out of Chicago to mount and repair posters and old handbills. I have had a few done, and the results were remarkable! My collection of posters are stored in a large box that is lined with acid free foam board. I place a few moth balls on a small tray within that box to keep paper eating insects away (silver fish). It seems to work. Jim Cole


910. Ringling, St. Louis 1943-1954, 19 October, 2005 - Reviewing the Ringling routes I noticed that the show didn't play St. Louis, MO from 1943 through 1954. The exception was 1949 when the show played from 1 to 6 November. Prior to 1943 the show often played St. Louis for two to four day stands. I have heard that the Zoo's big animal shows were too much competition but that was probably Director Vierheller's press comment. The Police Circus and the Shrine Circus may have been the serious competition. 1. Was there any explanation of why the Ringling show didn't play a major city of the time? 2. Was the November 1949 date played at the Arena as an early indoor date? jalexander. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 21 October, 2005 - The answer to your questions is likely to be found in the politics and power brokering of St. Louis. You might read Billboard accounts and also local newspaper coverage when RBBB returned in 1949 and 1954. Look at the city leadership, the police chief and also the Shriners to determine who might have held sway in local licensing. If RBBB played under canvas, it might have been the availability of a suitable lot. Railroad access and car storage is another issue. There are examples where local entities, such as a state fair, tried to prevent a circus from appearing. Sells-Floto did it in their hometown of Denver to the Ringling Bros. one year. Sometimes building contracts exclude competing shows from appearing, or set a minimum time to elapse before a competing show can be booked. There are also issues with available building time, or advance bookings. Fred Dahlinger

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909. Emmett Kelly, 19 October, 2005 - I would be interested in articles, personal stories, photos or artifacts of my grandfather Emmett Kelly, step-grandfather Joe Lewis or grandmother Eva Lewis that anyone may wish to share. You may contact me at joeykelly@yahoo.com. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 20 October, 2005 - Dear Joey: I knew your grandfather and grandmother before they were married. Your grandfather lived in the same train car as we (my mother, sister & I). I was only 11yrs old in 1955 on the Ringling Show. I do remember that your Grandfather cooked fish every Friday and the odor of fresh cooked fish floated all through our car. All the train cars that we lived in had numbers and names on the side. Our car's number I can't remember but, the name was PORTLAND. Your Grandmother was part of a girls tumbling act called the Whirlwinds. And whirlwinds they truly were. They all did tumbling tricks one after the other at a very fast pace. Then, at the end of the act they all joined in at one time. Their act was a big hit with audience. I'm sure that you know that your grandmother was German. In any case she and my mother and sister were good friends since we were German as well. Your Grandfather kept pretty much to himself and kept only close friends near him. I do remember that the audience always cheered when he came into the ring. Sincerely, Erny Karoly


908. Performer Al Ross, (Alphonse Helwig), 18 October, 2005 - Al was inducted into the International Clown Hall of Fame in 1993. Their brief bio indicates he began his career with the Ross Brothers acrobatic group in 1930 and later became a clown. Any additional information or research recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Lane farsidfm@bellsouth.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 19 October, 2005 - Al Ross was the producing clown on my dad's 1955 show, Fred J. Mack. He was around Columbus, Ohio for a long while after that. He owned a diner that I remember going into with my dad on several occasions, and remember the food was great. Al trained the Aladdin Shrine Temple clowns here in Columbus, and was a revered figure in local clown circles. I don't have any memories of him except the good food. Fred Pfening III


907. Kirby "Sky King" Grant, 18 October, 2005 - Can anyone tell me what years Sky King appeared with Carson & Barnes, and also James Bros. Circus? Jim Cole. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 29 October, 2005 - Kirby Grant (Sky King) appeared with Carson & Barnes from 1965 until about 1971 (although possibly a season or two longer than that). I distinctly remember him headlining the Jack Moore-owned C&B in '67. He was introduced about halfway through the show and sang a couple of Western songs from the center ring. Instead of a wild west after-show, C&B sold photos of "Sky King" and invited purchasers to stay for an "autograph party." That particular schtick was very lucrative for C&B and (presumably) for Grant as well. Paul Holley.
    Reply: 08 November, 2005 - Just a quick follow-up. Since Mr. Cole asked this question, Buckles Woodcock addressed the issue with some fine photos and information on his Blog site, bucklesw.blogspot.com, about Kirby Grant. I know Mr. Cole saw them so I just wanted to inform others that may not have visited Buckles Blogsite yet. If you really enjoy circus history at it's finest, go visit Buckles site. Bob Cline


906. Trapeze artists, Bloomington/Normal, IL, 17 October, 2005 - I've been told that Blooomington-Normal (IL) was once known as the aerialist capital of the world with nearly 40 acts wintering and practicing their art in a barn on Emerson Street. This "barn" later became a restaurant known as the Grand Hotel for many, many years. I grew up just one block from the restaurant and vaguely remember the story told to me, by my deceased parents, about a photo I now have - an 8x10 black and white photo of six trapeze artists. The names above them look like: Bill, Froddie, Jeep, Frances, Ray and Mary. Would anyone have additional information about this photo? Thanks, Rhonda jacks311@verizon.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 18 October, 2005 - I would speculate that Bill was Billy Ward, Jeep was Jeep Milam, Mary was Mary Stevens (Shearer), and Ray was Ray Hendrix; but can't be sure without seeing the photo. They were flyers with Harry La Mar's act. I would be happy to try to identify everyone for you if you want to scan your picture and send it to me at skgossard@aol.com. By the way, the Grand Hotel was torn down a few years ago. Steve Gossard
    Reply: 21 October, 2005 - Hi Rhonda, I believe the photo is of my uncles: Bill Valentine, of the Flying LaVals; Freddie Valentine of the Flying Valentines; Jeep Milam, Frances Reiner; and Roy and Mary Valentine of the Flying Romas. Aunt Mary Atterbury Valentine Stath still lives in Texas. Cherie Valentine

    Reply: 17 Oct 2008 - My Aunt Mary Atterbury Valentine Stathand. Her Husband Lee Stath Currently Live Near San Antonio, Texas in a town called Kerville. Joseph Atterbury, San Antonio, Texas


905. Christy Bros. Wild Animal Show/Circus, 17 October, 2005 - My name is Maggie Weir. I am still searching for any memorabilia from the Christy Bros. Wild Animal Show/Circus. Bob Cline was nice enough to respond to me in mid September, suggesting that I attend national conventions or also perhaps advertise in Circus periodicals. I am happy to do both, but need further guidance as to where to search for such convention information and which periodicals have the most readers, etc. I am very new to the circus memorabilia world, and really appreciate any helping hand anybody could give me in getting started. I can be reached at maggieweir@yahoo.com. I live in Boston, MA. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 22 October, 2005 - Hello again. Judy Griffin, who is the webmaster for this site, has information about the past conventions and will have the necessary information for the coming convention as plans are solidified, I'm sure. I have heard it alluded to that Sarasota will be our gathering place next year but don't take hearsay for fact. In all fairness to the seperate organizations, The Circus Fans Association periodical called the White Tops has more commercial advertising than any other circus periodical. You might also try Circus Report which is published by Bill and Jan Biggerstaff in Nevada on a bi-weekly basis I believe. The Don Marcks version also had commercial advertising so they might still do the same. If you still need help, ask again. One of us in internet land can help somehow, somewhere. Bob Cline


904. Daniel R. Robinson, 17 October, 2005 - I can find little information about Daniel R. Robinson. His name is written on a ticket for The Famous Robinson Shows. Was this a carry over from the European float shows, or the John Robinson Shows? When was Daniel in charge? Thanks Jerry McDonald Somerset KY. janddmcd@qx.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.
    Reply: 19 October, 2005 - This is thrilling - that you have an interest in Daniel R. Robinson (1865 - 1919). He was married to my great-grandaunt, Bess Griffin Kirtley (1867 - 1945). I have a lifetime of research and materials surrounding these two persons, their adopted daughter (Tetu Robinson) and their carnivals and circuses. I am happy to share any and all information with anyone who is interested. Although Danny and Bess also resided at Cincinnati, they were not related to the John Robinson family. Frances Wentz Taber - Fernandina Beach, FL - francestaber@bellsouth.net


903. Charles Muckensturm, circus band, 16 October, 2005 - Charles Muckensturm, toured for several seasons as a circus band member. I believe his first season was with the Sun Bros. Circus in 1913, although he may have started earlier. He was with the Hagenbeck-Wallace Shows in 1914, and with Brill's Concert Band touring with the Barnum & Bailey Circus in 1916. I have no knowledge of his whereabouts in 1915, and I know WW1 ended his circus career in 1917. I have two pictures of my father in a circus band uniform, perhaps the same uniform. Could anyone identify the circus organization from the uniform? The pictures may be viewed at home.earthlink.net/~chasmuck. There is a close up of the insignia on the hat which might aid in the identification. There are also several other circus related pictures that may be of interest. Charles Muckensturm, chasmuck@earthlink.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.


902. Thanks, Judy!, 16 October, 2005 - This is not a question but rather a huge Thank You to you Judy for keeping this website fresh, timely, and interesting. Although Circus History is my passion, as a volunteer firefighter and Officer on the Dept. I know first hand how many hours are spent working on things that no one knows anything about. To you, I offer a heartfelt Congratulations on your time, work, and tireless energy involved in keeping all of us up to date and fascinated at the same time. Thanks Judy! Bob Cline. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender.
    Reply: 17 October, 2005 - I second it!!! Since I have been made aware of this wonderful website, I have passed it on to others who have found as much enjoyment as I have, delving into Circus History, thanks to you and the other Historians. Thank You! Bunni Bartok. BunniB1@aol.com
    Reply: 17 October, 2005 - Thanks for the kind words! The CHS website is a 'labor of love' for me. Judy Griffin, webmaster
    Reply: 19 October, 2005 - I third it. One of the promises of the Internet was that it would bring together communities of people with similar interests. This site has done that in spades, and Judy Griffin deserves all the credit in the world for making that happen. Fred D. Pfening III
    Reply: 20 October, 2005 - Quite right Bob Cline, and also my thanks, Judy! Natasha Gerson
    Reply: 21 October, 2005 - What a nice thing to do! We all owe Judy the spot light in Center Ring!!!! Erny Karoly
    Reply: 21 October, 2005 - Judy, you are doing a great job. Thanks for your interest and efforts. John Goodall
    Reply: 24 October, 2005 - Judy, the website fascinates me. What a wonderful journey down old sawdust trails! Thank you for fostering this valuable resource. David Lewis Hammarstrom


901. Barnum & Bailey Europe, 16 October, 2005 - Hello. I would like to know how Barnum & Bailey's Circus traveled to and from Europe for their world tour ending in 1902. Did they have their own ship? Also, is there anywhere on line where I could find a list of the entertainers traveling with them for the tour? Thank you very much, Janette L. Jones, jljones@molalla.net. Respond to this message, your reply goes to this board, not to the sender, please read posting instructions when sending messages to this board.

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