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Message Archive: Messages 2151 - 2200


2200. Circus security, 13 Dec 2007 - What was the security for the performers like in the early 1900's as opposed to today? Diannapl@aol.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2199. Wilkie's Circus, 12 Dec 2007 - Hello from South Africa. I am interested in the history of circus artistes who performed at Wilkies mammoth circus in New Brighton? How would I obtain any information regarding the artistes and information on WH Wilkie? Many thanks. Karen Wilkie. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2198. W. F. Duggan, 12 Dec 2007 - My name is Mike Petruschell, I’m the grandson of W.F. Duggan Sr and the nephew of W. F. Dub Duggan Jr. I’m researching both my grandfathers’ and uncles’ circus history and would appreciate any information that anyone had on them as my mother passed away before she had the chance to tell me much about them. I am 52 and know that my grandfather is buried in a primitive Baptist Church in Moultrie, Ga., with a full size elephant for a headstone. I have visited it on several occasions. Other than that, I know next to nothing about the history of either one of them. Any information would be most welcome. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 13 Dec 2007 - You might want to contact the Robert Parkinson Library at Circus World. Also, there is a Circus Fan Association Duggan Tent in Atlanta, GA. They may have information on William & Dub Duggan. Links to both of these sources are on the links page on this website. J. Griffin

    Reply: 14 Dec 2007 - Joseph T. Bradbury wrote an article about the history of the Duggan Bros. Circus. I believe that it was published in "White Tops" magazine. It can be located in the "White Tops" index that is searchable on this website. [Click on "Publications" icon on navigation sidebar] Bradbury also wrote the story of the Harrington circus, which was bought and became the Duggan show. That article is in "Bandwagon." Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 22 Dec 2007 - Stan [Stancel L.] May of Jonesboro, GA is Duggan's nephew or cousin and knows all about the Duggans. Richard J. Reynolds

    Reply: 30 Aug 2008 - Mike: We are related. I am Thomas Laird, and am from the Laird and Goff, Wingate families in Moultrie. I remember playing on the elephant, we called it Babe, when we were children and would go to the cemetery to put flowers on the family graves on special occasions. My dad, sisters and I visited the cemetery last April when we were there for a family reunion. Dad says the stone was put up about 1950-51 and is a copy of Willian Duggan’s favorite baby elephant. Do not know much else but will ask dad. Robert Thomas Laird, roberttlaird@cs.com

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2197. Thomas Bielhy, wrestler, 10 Dec 2007 - I had a great uncle and aunt in the 101 Ranch – Ted and Sophie G (Wrestler & rider). I recently discovered my husband’s grandfather may have also been a wrestler in a circus of the 1920s (he may have gone by the name Thomas Bielhy). He was an immigrant from either Poland or Russia. Do you know of any listings of names of circus performers, particularly wrestlers, and dates they may have been involved with various circuses? Any information would be appreciated - Jan. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2196. James Brothers Circus blow down, 09 Dec 2007 - I would like to find some information or photos of The James Brothers Circus tent blow down. It would have been late 60s or early 70s. I was a little girl with the show at the time, but can't remember the name of the town or the date. Any info would be appreciated. Sylvia Hernandez DiStasi, Artistic Director, The Actors Gymnasium, Noyes Cultural Arts Center, Evanston, IL, larry@actorsgymnasium.com, www.actorsgymnasium.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 09 Dec 2007 - This may be the incident you are asking about. Wednesday, May 20, 1970, Grand Junction, Colorado. James Brothers Circus, tent 'blow down,' injured more than 70 persons. John Jackson was a clown and Herbert Weber on the high wire with the circus at the time. J. Griffin

    Reply: 10 Dec 2007 - Than you so much. May I ask where you got your information. Are there news paper articles or photos available. I am having a hard time finding much information on James Brothers or George Mathews Great London Circus. I am looking for old photos or programs as well. Thanks again. Sylvia Hernandez DiStasi

    Reply: 10 Dec 2007 - I found the information in an article on newspaperarchives.com, subscription website ($). Sorry, I didn't record the newspaper. If I recall correctly, there were other articles on the James Bros. circus. J. Griffin

    Reply: 10 Dec 2007 - Thanks again. Sylvia Hernandez DiStasi

    Reply: 22 May 2008 - The information you are looking for can be found in the archives of the Grand Junction Daily Sentinel, Grand Junction, Colorado. Also, try the Museum of the West, (formerly the Museum of Western Colorado), also located in Grand Junction, Colorado. If that fails, I know for sure the Mesa County Public Library , also in Grand Junction can assist you. I was one of the more seriously hurt kids on that tragic day, and remember it well. It affected me to this day. In fact, as I write this, it marks the 38th anniversary of that accident, and the weather is exactly the same as it was on that day, and on a Wednesday to boot! Weird, huh? Mark Rodriguez

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2195. 1843 Ledger names, 07 Dec 2007 - I need information on names listed in an 1843 Delavan and Lent Ledger: Joe Hix, Avery Smith, Tom Chestnut, John Swan and A Camel (?). I am researching the 31 names listed in the ledger for the Somers Historical Society. Beverley Brigandi, tariano@somersny.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 09 Dec 2007 - According to the book "Badger State Showmen" by Stuart Thayer & Fred Dahlinger, there is no mention of John Hix. Avery Smith is listed as one of the controlling interests in the Sands, Nathan, and Co. Circus Operation. There is no mention of Tom Chestnut or John Swan in the book. Your time would be well spent by visiting the Circus World Museum Research Library in Baraboo. They have the largest archives file in the country. Erin Foley is the Archivist on staff. After your visit to the Circus World Museum Library, try newspaperARCHIVE.com. They have over 75 million newspaper pages online to search through. It may or may not help. Bob Cline

    Reply: 14 Dec 2007 - Check the names in the index to Thayer's "Annals of the American Circus 1793-1860." Avery Smith is a well known showman, who you'll also find listed in Slout's "Olympians," which is on this website. The title "Delavan and Lent" may be in error, perhaps being investor/owner names and not the public title; you may want to ascertain the actual existence of that title in Thayer's "Annals" and also search for other active shows of 1843 as the actual public identity. Try looking at Welch's National Circus and Sands & Lent. What ever the title, it has nothing to do with Wisconsin circus history. The Delavan involved is presumably William A. Delavan, not Delavan, Wisconsin. Fred Dahlinger

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2194. Robertis, 07 Dec 2007 - I am trying to find the Robertis, the last time I saw their performance was in Morecambe in 1960, with Winships Circus at Heysham Head. The last time I talked with Ingrid was in 1963. The Rebertis had two children, Ingrid and Kevin. I am an old friend from Heysham Head. Any further information is greatly appreciated. Regards, Lyndon, simba1948@hotmail.co.uk. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 08 Dec 2007 - You will be probably aware that Ingrid married into the Billy Smart family - marrying Billy Wilson Smart (Grandson of the original Billy Smart Snr.) They were well-known in Europe as trainers/presenters of an act consisting of 3 Indian elephants. They toured for a number of seasons with the French, Arlette Gruss circus; before going to America to join Ringlings. Alas, this did not work out for them. The act returned to Europe and was finished soon after - with the elephants going to a Spanish circus, where at least one survives. Billy and Ingrid are now training/presenting a dog act - the last time I spoke to Ingrid (last year), they were on a small French show. John Morris, john.d.morris@btinternet.com

    Reply: 13 Dec 2007 - Sorry I did not mention the family but they toured with me on the Lord George Sangers Circus 1962 season (see 'Life Diary'). I remember Buby very well, always a great sense of humour. Tom Sandow [click on "History" on the navigation sidebar to read the 'Life Diary']

    Reply: 26 Jan 2008 - Thanks to Tom Sandow, for his reply. Kind Regards, Lyndon

    Reply: 19 Aug 2008 - Thought you might be interested in this Roberti's Circus postcard on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
    ViewItem&category=29482&item=160273552618. vintage-images@comcast.net

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2193. Montana Frank, 06 Dec 2007 - About a year ago a local businessman loaned the Bozeman Public Library large posters depicting Montana Frank and his Wild West Shows for a display in our Montana Room. The owner has no information about Montana Frank. Google does mention a Montana Frank and his famous Miles City round-up 1910 poster. We would like to find more historical information about him. We receive many questions about the background of the posters from our patrons.
      I have contacted the Buffalo Bill Museum & Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming and the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma by telephone and could not locate any information. I plan to contact soon the Amon Carter Museum in Texas, since I noticed that this library owns the title "Wild West: History of the Wild West Shows, an Account of Prestigious, Peregrinatory Pageants Pretentiously Presented. Image of the American West". This title is not available through Interlibrary Loan.
      Last spring, I talked on the telephone with Dr. L.G. Moses, author of "Wild West Shows and the Images of American Indians 1883-1933". He suggested I check with the Circus World Robert L. Parkinson Library and Research Center, since these Wild West shows were performances similar to the circus. Erin Foley, the archivist of the Circus World Museum Library and Research Center, suggested I post my questions on this web site. I appreciate receiving any information, leads, or ideas to pursue. Mary Ann Childs, Bozeman Public Library, Bozeman, MT, mchilds@bozeman.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 06 Dec 2007 - This may be your Montana Frank. Found at newspaperarchives.com and other sources. J. Griffin

    Helena (MT) Daily Independent, April 11, 1938, p. 5[?].
    Montana Frank McCray, Last of Buffalo Bill Scouts, Is Found Living in Salmon River Wilds.
          One of the picturesque figures of the old West, particularly of the days when William Cody, Buffalo Bill to you, roamed the Montana plains as a famous scout, buffalo hunter and Indian fighter, was discovered recently living in an isolated cabin In the Salmon river wilderness in Idaho.
          He is Frank McCray, 73, better known to pioneers as Montana Frank, a true frontiersman who is said to be the last surviving Buffalo Bill scout and rough rider. He was associated with Buffalo Bill as a scout and hunter for a number of years and helped to make history in the days when Montana was still a frontier. He was with Buffalo Bill in his famous wild west show several years.

    Of Boone Era
          Montana Frank In appearance is the typical frontiersman of the Daniel Boone era. He wears his hair, now iron gray, in long flowIng locks and his everyday garb is the beaded buckskin shirt or jacket with "jeans" to match. He has the same type goatee that Buffalo Bill and others of his ilk were wont to sport. He enjoys the life of a hermit in his mountain fastness and devotes his time to prospecting and hunting.
          Montana Frank, though, has not always lived his present life of seclusion, but has traveled in distant lands. He is one of the few men who possesses a permanent passport into Old Mexico, where many years ago he located and developed silver mines near Mexico City. These he has turned over to his two daughters and their husbands. He is a scholar, a, gentleman, an explorer, a prospector and a miner and a story-teller of rare talent. His life's experiences are many and thrilling.

    Native of Butte
          Frank McCray was born at Butte, on January 15, 1864, the second white child born there, he believes. His life for many years was Intimately entwined with the growth and development of Montana. He was mustered into messenger and scout service at Fort Shaw. It was his duty to help supply meat for the soldiers and guard the mail coaches from marauding enemies. He bears the scars of many a tomahawk wound.
          Fifty years ago, he crossed the famous Lolo pass to the far western range to gather horses and mules for the government. He has seen the passing of many famous cattle brands—the BR, the Circle F, the ST, the DHS, the BHB, the, PL, the OX, the 777, the 3V, the E6 and the "hash knife," all of which spell Montana history. He rode, wl»h Bill Cody at the world's fair in 1893, went to Madison Square Garden with him and then spent two years showing in Europe.

    Friend of Russell
          He numbers among his Montana friends, the late Charles Russell, the artist; Sid Willis, the senator; Ad Hutches, George Brown and John R. Smith and other statesmen and financiers.
          Now, at 73, he is living by choice on the last frontier. He finds solace and happiness far from the haunts of men. He has built a spacious cabin at the foot of the famous Lembi [Lemhi?] trail on the isolated "river of no return," the Salmon. It is furnished with artistic, comfortable furniture made by hand from the mountain yew wood.
          In the summer he pans the rich sands that lie in front of his cabin. In the winter he works in the quartz ledges in the mountains that form the background for his home. He calls his mine the "Tin Pan."
          Montana Frank hunts with a sure and steady aim. He fishes with skill. His sturdy good health and looks belie his years. His cabin latch-string is always out. Hunters and fishermen who have discovered his mountain retreat have found a hearty welcome.
          His business is mining. His hobby is music. He composes and sets to music choice poems, some of which he has published. His latest song hit he calls "The Duke of Windsor and the American Girl." He is personally acquainted with England's ex-king and admires him with a warm sincerity. He has sent a copy of the song to the duke and his duchess.

    Montana Standard (Butte, MT), April 5, 1959, p. 11B[?]

    Man Born in Butte in 1864, Frank McCray, Dies in Idaho.
          Butte wasn't much more than a 'wide spot' on the road between gold mining camps in January, 1864 when Frank McCray, one of the first children born in this community, first saw the light of day. Three weeks ago, March 16[?], Frank McCray died at his home in Grangeville, Idaho, at the age of 95. Funeral services were conducted March 19, and interment was in Prairie View cemetery near Grangeville. Throughout his long and colorful career Frank McCray was affectionately known as "Colonel" McCray and "Montana" McCray. Shortly after his birth, Mr. McCray was taken to Fort Shaw, an Army post near Great Falls, where his father, Maj. Lyman McCray, was commanding officer, and there he spent his childhood.
          His father was killed in a skirmish with Indians and at the age of 17 he moved with his mother to Helena where he established a home. He later returned to Fort Shaw and was employed as a government scout for some time. At the age of 21 he became affiliated with the Masonic fraternity as a member of Sun River Lodge No. 4. In 1893 he was in Chicago engaged as a roper and rider with the Buffalo Bill show playing the first World Fair. While in Chicago he received the Knight Templar degrees of the York Rite of Masonry. He was an Epicopalian by faith.
          As a young man Col. McCray engaged in the cattle business on a ranch above Wolf Creek. In 1883 he married Elaine Powers in Helena and of that union two daughters were born. His wife died in 1894. After six years with the Buffalo Bill show, Mr. McCray engaged in various activities. As a performer he continued with a roping act and traveled the nation with hte Keith-Orpheum vaudeville circuit. He also traveled extensively with several minstrel shows.
          "Montana" McCray also became interested in prospecting and mining and was employed by the Gugenheim Mining Co. of New York. Later he worked on radio programs in the east and also made a series of broadcasts, on early days, over a station at Lewistown, Mont.
          He married a second time, taking as his wife, Mrs. Grace Day Chilcote, in Limestone, N. Y., Sept. 4[?], 1937[?]. The couple established residence at White Bird, Idaho, whre they lived for 20[?] years before moving to Grangeville. Surviving are his wife and two daughters, Mrs. Kathryn Burke and Mrs. Rosella Shields.

    Also: Montana F. McCray, birth 1864, death 1959, Block 4, Lot 36A, Plot S 1/2 of S 1/2, Notes: (Col.) Double stone with Grace D. McCRAY. Grace D. born 1888, died 1968. From: Ancestry.com. Prairie View Cemetery Inscriptions, Grangeville, Idaho [database on-line]. Original data: Idaho County Genealogical Society. Prairie View Cemetery Inscriptions.

    [Several items in 1910 regarding Montana Frank in 'moving pictures']

    Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, IW), June 23, 1917, p. 8.

    THE COLONIAL. It Will Present the West of History and Romance.
          The old days of the real wild west, the west of history and romance, will be mirrored at the Colonial theater, Wednesday and Thursday, when the annual Miles City (Mont.) Roundup will be picturized. There is riding and roping that really thrill and the large audiences which have witnessed the production are said never to tire of the exemplification. The genuineness of the pictures is apparent to anyone. Never before or since has there been gathered so remarkable a gathering of cowboys, cowgirls and Indians. Many world champions are included. There Is the famous Whirlwind, a real spinning broncho which spins like a top. There are the famous Powder river steer riders, riding wild steers, forward and backward. There Is also Montana Frank, who holds numerous medals for sensational riding-. Montana Frank will appear In person at the Colonial on the days that the great roundup pictures are shown. [The advertisement on the same page indicated this was a film]

    Reply: 14 Dec 2007 - Thank you so much J. Griffin for all the information you found. I am sharing all the information you found with my reference supervisor, so we can make this available for our patrons. It is the best and closest information we have found. I appreciate your time in copying it into this message board. Besides the newspaperarchives.com, it was mentioned “other sources.” We are wondering what those might be. Mary Ann Childs

    Reply: 14 Dec 2007 - Sorry, the only other source was the Ancestry.com burial information. J. Griffin

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2192. Joseph Hubertus Pilates, 05 Dec 2007 - I am researching the history of Joseph Hubertus Pilates, it was said he worked in the circus as A muscle man, had an act with his brother Frederick where they were Roman gladiators who fought to show off his muscles. Legend has it he was in the circus in England when WW1 broke out and was then interred. Pilates was born in 1880, near Dusseldorf, and this would be anytime from 1900-1914. I’m trying to find out if it could have been a German circus or an English circus. I appreciate any help or leads you can give me. Siri Dharma Galliano, Los Angeles, CA. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2191. Loyal-Repensky Circus, 05 Dec 2007 - Does anyone know if the Loyal-Repensky Circus was out any year other than 1954? Bob Parkinson’s book doesn’t list any years by the title, and the Billboard (and Bandwagon 3/17/55) only mentions that the riding family opened a "European" show in Sarasota in February 1954 (with Dub Duggan as manager). Did the show finish the season? Did they tour under this title in later years? - Chris Berry. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 06 Dec 2007 - According to an article in the Logansport (IN) Press, Feb. 21, 1954, The Loyal Repenski family and the Christiani family were also owners of the Bailey Brothers and Christiani Combined Circus in 1954. The Loyal Repenski Circus opened in Sarastoa, FL on Feb. 25, 1954, the Bailey Bros. & Christiani Combined Circus opened in Corpus Christi, TX on about April 5, 1954. - J. Griffin

    Reply: 23 Dec 2007 - Giustino Loyal was the manager of Circo Loyal for a May 23, 1951 date at San German, Puerto Rico. In a letter to the U.S. Tent and Awning Co. he noted that business was good in San Juan, and the show would close in Puerto Rico on June 10. After that Giustino could be reached at 620 E. Prospect Ave, Sarasota, Florida. Another letter on a Circo Loyal Repensky letterhead dated July 27, 1953 was mailed from Managua, Nicaragua, Central America to the U.S. Tent & Awning Co. The dressing tent that was on order would need to wait for delivery as he was unsure how long he would stay in the next country. The big top on order was to be other than blue in color as 'any little bit of dust shows too much'. The quote was to be sent to Salvador, as the show would be there next Monday. An undated letter from Circo Loyal Repensky playing at the Stadium De Cerro in Havana, Cuba noted - 'In answer to your letter of Feb. 11 (1952 or 1953) which I just received here from the interior'. It was rough business in Cuba and the show was working back to Havana and plans were to leave Cuba on March 18 and take to show to Sarasota. In 1954 the Loyal Repensky Circus opened Feb. 5 at Sarasota, Florida, (not on the 25th). The Billboard route noted that the show was in North Miami on Feb. 26, then down to Key West on March 1 & 2, then up the east coast to Fort Lauderdale on March 5, then west to Troy, Alabama on March 24, and a two day stand at Homewood, Alabama March 31 to April 1. I believe this was the end of the season for the show as they joined with the Bailey/ Christiani Circus. Ted Bowman Circus Route Collection

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2190. James Buckley, acrobat, 02 Dec 2007 - Does anyone have any info on a James Buckley, who was an acrobat with the Ringling and Barnum circuses. He was also in charge of the comedy pantomine of the Toronto Exhibiton. The only date I have to work with is 1920's or 1930's? James Buckley became a well known theatre artist in the United States and Canada. However, I cannot seem to find much info about him or his work through normal search channels. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Penny Morningstar, Curator, Welland Historical Museum. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2189. Life Diary - Tom Sandow (part six), 02 Dec 2007 - Tom Sandow's Diary has been moved to the History section. Read his diary at: Tom Sandow's Life Diary.       Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2188. Winkler, death 1900s, 01 Dec 2007 - Am trying to find a young girl that was killed in the Circus in Detroit in the early 1900s, fell off of a horse while performing there, her last name was Winkler. What year she was killed and if any pictures on her in newspaper write up or obit in Detroit. Thanks, Betty. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2187. Life Diary - Tom Sandow (part five), 01 Dec 2007 - Tom Sandow's Diary has been moved to the History section. Read his diary at: Tom Sandow's Life Diary.      Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2186. Life Diary - Tom Sandow (part four), 30 Nov 2007 - Tom Sandow's Diary has been moved to the History section. Read his diary at: Tom Sandow's Life Diary.      Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2185. Life Diary - Tom Sandow (part three), 30 Nov 2007 - Tom Sandow's Diary has been moved to the History section. Read his diary at: Tom Sandow's Life Diary.      Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2184. Duke Family, 29 Nov 2007 - I am seeking any information anyone might have regarding the Duke Family. This entire family participated in various circus events from clowns to tight wire acts. There were triplets with this family and they also entertained. Ralph Duke and his family were from Rockwell City, Iowa later they lived in Dallas, Texas. Thanking you in advance. Bill & Judi Benson, soulmatebj@cableone.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 03 Dec 2007 - Just happened to be looking at the Billboard December 12, 1942 p. 39 and noted - Ralph Duke clown & member of the Aerial Dukes is in the Sioux Valley Hospital, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, as result of injuries sustained while working the Shrine Circus there. He wanted to hear from friends. John Polacsek

    Reply: 23 Dec 2007 - I am a member of the Duke family. What information are you looking for? Beverly Abderrahman

    Reply: 30 Apr 2008 - Hey Bev, Bill is our cousin on the Browning side. Give him a reply to the above e-mail address. He has some questions that I think you might be able to answer for him. Thanks sis. Margaret

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2183. Modoc, North circus, Bram, 29 Nov 2007 - Like many others my curiousity around Modoc the elephant, the North circus and Bram the trainer was piqued by reading the book. I too have searched extensively for information and come up with nothing significant. If anyone has learned something I would love to hear about it. Has the author given any interviews? Aly – Danville, CA. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 30 Nov 2007 - Re: 2183. Modoc, North circus, Bram. Check out entries on this subject already posted on this website: 1486. Modoc, 10 August, 2006; 1035. Modoc, 22 December, 2005; 1926. Modoc, 12 Jun 2007. Also do a search in the archives over at Buckles Woodcock's blog for much more detail on this fiction http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/. Jim Stockley, South Africa

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2182. James Patterson, Great Patterson Shows, 29 Nov 2007 - My name is Roger Gordon, rgordon@watchtv.net. Last Year, My sister and her husband purchased the home of James Patterson in Payola, Kansas and have almost completed the restoration of the house. Within a couple of weeks of the purchase, she was in a Florida airport, returning from a trip to Italy that she went on with my wife, mother, and Aunt. At the airport, a lady saw some paperwork hanging out with Payola, Kansas on it and proceeded to tell my sister that her grandparents had owned a circus in Payola, and she was heading home for the family reunion. My sister told her about her purchase and invited the family over. They gave her a lot of family documentation that she has been trying to put all together, and she invited to put them up for the next reunion after the house was completed. I would appreciate any copies of photos that anyone has or info on the circus, the great Patterson shows, the carnival, or under any of the other names he used after acquiring other circuses.
      Also, my main query would be about some paintings in the house. The house had 10 paintings done on the plaster when she bought the house. In the restoration, she found one more of an owl, but the descendants said there had been 3 separate owls. Only the one in James Pattersons office above that fireplace is signed and is dated 1913. It is a painting of James Patterson on horseback with tents in the background, with The Great Patterson Shows on one of the tents. This picture seems to be of the same quality and style as the rest, and with the 4 fireplaces in the house the paintings need professional cleaning and restoring. That painting is signed Paul L.C Nardstrom 1916 The way the first r in Nardstrom is made, it could possibly be a "u". further, the strom could possibly be strorn by the way it is signed. I was wondering if these were painted by someone that painted a lot of the pictures for the shows, or by a professional. Is anyone familiar with who this might be, or who to contact for information on the artist and/or restoration. Thanks in advance. Roger. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 01 Dec 2007 - Joe Bradbury wrote an illustrated article about the James Patterson quarters in Paola, Kansas. You'll find it in "Bandwagon," the society's journal, XXXIV, 4 (July-Aug 1990). You can likely buy a back issue via information on the website. If you search the "Bandwagon" article indexes [start on the Home Page, at "Bandwagon," then look for the various indexes], and also those for White Tops [Home Page, then Publications and scroll down to Periodicals where you'll find the indexes highlighted] you may also find other articles concerning James Patterson's circuses.
          Bob Goldsack wrote a lengthy article about Patterson that focused on his carnival operations. It appeared in his journal "Midway Journal Illustrated," October 2000. There is also some coverage of his carnival activity, including a photograph of a quarters structure, in Joe McKennon's book "Pictorial History of the American Carnival." James Patterson, Jr. also penned a good article about his father that you can find in "Merry-Go-Roundup," the journal of the National Carousel Association.
          The trade journals "Billboard" and "New York Clipper" are filled with many images and articles about the Patterson operations, especially in the 1913-1922 era. He was a leading showman, a credit to both the circus and the carnival business. One of the best overviews of the Patterson quarters is found in "New York Clipper," April 19, 1913, page 2.
          It's nice to know that the Patterson home is in caring hands. The painter may have been one of many itinerant artists who did interior painting across America. He may also have been a show painter, re-assigned to work in the house. Circus parade wagons and wagon-mounted carnival show fronts [such as Patterson's Trained Wild Animal Show] sometimes had scenic paintings applied to them that required some skill. Another place to check for information would be the Paola newspapers of the time. They may have contained reports about the construction and decoration of Patterson's grand home. Check the holdings at the local historical society and also check with the state historical society. A few itinerant painters have been documented; you might get lucky and find out he's one of them. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 03 Dec 2007 - FYI - The 1922 Gentry Brothers Famous Shows was playing the far west in 1922 and by late September the show closed in Texas as it went broke due to poor business. The property was placed in the hands of a receiver at Houston, Texas on November 8, and sold to James Patterson. The show equipment was then taken to the Paola winter quarters. There may be local newspaper coverage of the equipment coming into Paola. Patterson used this equipment to frame the 1923 Gentry Brothers Famous Shows combined with Patterson's Wild Animal Circus. Ted Bowman Route Collection

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2181. Diary of events from 1940 - Sandow's Circus (part two), 29 Nov 2007 - Tom Sandow's Diary has been moved to the History section. Read his diary at: Tom Sandow's Life Diary.    Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2180. Model Shows carnival, 29 Nov 2007 - Looking for anything on the internet for a traveling carnival from the 1950's era. It was a train show that started with Model Shows. Not sure what followed Model. It was a larger show much like Johnnie J. Jones. Any info would be appreciated. Thank you, ken. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 01 Dec 2007 - Model Shows was used by Rubin Gruberg on his second carnival, Model Shows of America, 1928-1933. It became American Model Shows in 1934-1935. There is coverage in Chris Audibert's book, "Rubin & Cherry," 1989. There was also a railroad carnival called Model Shows operated by James E. Strates in 1952. It apparently operated through 1954, the last two seasons as O. C. Buck Model Shows. Information is in Bob Goldsack's book about the Strates operation. Both titles also have cameo coverage in Bob Goldsack's book about carnival trains. Fred Dahlinger

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2179. Which Farini is which?, 28 Nov 2007 - Is it clear that Guillermo Antonio Farini (aka George A Farini), refered to as an English vaudeville scout and credited with the invention of the first "human canonball device" in 1871 is the same person as "The Great Farini" (aka William Hunt) who is noted as a famous tightrope walker in the 1860s? Many articles on the internet refer to them as the same person, as does Slout's "Olympians of the Sawdust Circle" article. But most accounts say George Farini was an Englishman, while others say Hunt was American born and raised in Canada. Also, a 1976 article by Fred D Pfening Jr. in Bandwagon speaks of them separately, saying that George Farini patented his canonball device in 1871 but Hunt, "another Englishman" patented a similar device at a later date. Are these the same person actually, or are they two different people whose histories have become confused and intertwined? Bradley Palmer, yepproductions@charter.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 01 Dec 2007 - Secure by loan or purchase a copy of Sean Peacock's book on Farini and you'll likely find the answer therein. He was not able to include the documentation for the book in the published volume, which is unfortunate. You might also search census records, which usually have an entry for place of birth, and if it's really important, seek a birth certificate. With Slout's given birth date of June 10, 1838 and the locale of Lockport, NY, there should be a local record, unless they were destroyed by fire or not required. Fred Dahlinger

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2178. William Alexander, midget tightrope walker, 28 Nov 2007 - I am looking for information about a midget tightrope walker who probably worked from about the 1840's to the 1870's or 1880's, William Alexander. He was supposed to be only 3 feet tall or so. He was born in Pennsylvania about 1814, and probably worked the Pennsylvania-New York area but I am not sure. We have a photo of a nicely dressed little man with a long beard and hat, taken perhaps in the 1870's, I think taken in New York State. He was connected to the Pitts family. Does anyone have any ideas for researching him? rcpohl@hotmail.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2177. St. Leon Troupe, 1958, 28 Nov 2007 - My name is Stephanie. I live in Louisiana. I was looking for some information on my grandparents. Them and their families were in the circus business around the year of 1958. My grandmother and her family were a part of The Marcus Troupe. Their act was juggling. My grandfather and grandmother were both in The St. Leon Troupe. They were Austalian acrobats that did a teeterboard act. I'm not really sure where they performed but I know they toured a lot. I know there is one article published in Variety about them on August 20, 1958. I was just looking perhaps for some more information becuase anytime I try to search the internet I cant find anything. Any information is appreciated. Thanks. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 29 Nov 2007 - Hello Stephanie. Leo St Leon is my best friend and is part of the famous St Leon circus family. robert.perry3@bigpond.com

    Reply: 30 Nov 2007 - Dear Stephanie, I was on the Cole Bros. Circus with the St. Leons teeter board act in 1949. At that time they lived in Brooklyn. I am looking for Norm St. Leon who I think lives in Florida. If you get any information about him I would appreciate hearing from you. His brother's name was Clyde who died a few years ago. Good Luck, Betty Paterson Smyth

    Reply: 03 Dec 2007 - Hello Stephanie , Robert Perry Of the famous Perry's Bros Circus Family, here in Australia rang to tell me of your plea. I must admit I don't know a lot of information about the American side of the family, but I will check around and get back to you. Leo, leostleon@tadaust.org.com

    Reply: 10 Dec 2007 - Hi, Betty! This is Stephanie. I started the discussion. I wanted to tell you that I do know Norm St. Leon. He is my great uncle. Clyde was my grandpa. I dont know Norm's phone number or anything, I would have to ask my mom if she had it, but I know he lives in Florida, because I just visited for Thanksgiving and got to see him. Hopefully I can find some stuff out for you. It may take a while because I would have to go through my mom, who would have to go through her mom and so on. But I hope to get back to you as soon as I can. My email is sgleber@yahoo.com

    Reply: 18 Dec 2007 - Dear Stephanie, Thanks so much or your reply I hope to hear from you soon. BettyPaterson Smyth

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2176. George F. Bailey Winterquarters, 28 Nov 2007 - Can anyone tell me winter quarters for the George F. Bailey Circus? terry schaub, tmseagle@sbcglobal.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 03 Dec 2007 - The G. F. Bailey Show - 1860 opened at Danbury, Conn; 1862 closed in Danbury, Conn.; 1866 opened at Danbury, Conn; 1867 opened at Danbury, Conn.; 1868 opened in St. Louis, Mo. and closed there; 1871 opened at Danbury, Conn. and winterquarters there; 1872 opened in Danbury, Conn.; 1872 opened in St. Louis, Mo. Ted Bowman Route Collection

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2175. A Diary, Part One, Sandow Family, 27 Nov 2007 - This is a personal diary of events from 1940 [to circa 1987] with thanks and appreciation to persons who have kept certain records and details over the years that I have been able to access. I will do my best to give credit to individuals, mostly British circus fans, for without such people I am sure circus art and artistes would not be able to keep accurate history.
      Circus fans and followers are able to log events and occurrences with leisured and pleasure whilst circus artistes, in the main are, perhaps, too involved in the actual workload of performing and even the manual labour of moving circuses to keep accurate diaries of events (some may not care to!). I do speak personally – I have not found the time to keep excellent records and so much has been lost because of it. Also, of course, circus followers may visit various shows during a season for stories and photographs whilst the artiste remains on the one show only (perhaps for several seasons) and so will restrict that persons output.
      Here in England we had the wonderful John Turner who put forward the Web Site 'Two Centuries of British Circus People Discussion Forum' with the invitation for me to post some pages there. The recent very sad loss of John is a real blow to circus biography for he was the most dedicated person that I have ever come across to archive circus people’s history with a fond desire for accuracy – a point of view I do cherish. Which does bring me to one observation found over years in circus experiences that the spreading of gossip or 'rumour mongering' can prove very destructive in our small business world that is circus. It must be said that I have found a very small number of circus fans and followers who have been guilty of this (of course they are not alone for some circus artistes and proprietors also enjoy this kind of pastime).
      I do hope that these writings are of real interest. The purpose of them from my point of view is to inspire inputs from others, be they corrections or welcome additions so that a wider content may be achieved. Perhaps additions from long- lost relations? I do have a large number in the United States. - Tom Sandow

Tom Sandow's Diary has been moved to the History section. Read his diary at: Tom Sandow's Life Diary.    Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2174. Gatti Circus poster, 27 Nov 2007 - I am trying to get an old Gatti Circus poster for my husband for Christmas. Does anyone know where I can get this? Thanks, George Gatti, gjgatti1@verizon.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 29 Nov 2007 - Start by looking on ebay everyday under Collectibles / Historical / Circus, Carnival. Listings are being added everyday. Someone has a 1969 Gatti-Charles Program and coloring book listed now. Bob Cline

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2173. Robert Perry, motordrome, 27 Nov 2007 - I am new to this type of research so please excuse me if I ask something that is inappropriate for this discussion board. My father told me a story about my grandfather, Robert Morris Perry, in that he rode motorcycles in the circus/carnival motordrome during the early 1940's. His original birth name was Morris Lester Elliott but he changed it for professional" reasons during his time with the circus/carnival. I don't have much more information, except that he was born Jan 30, 1903 and died April 7, 1961. He might have been known as Capt Bob Perry. Thank you in advance for any information that you can provide. peartree005@gmail.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 28 Nov 2007 - The motordrome [with inclined walls] and the variant silo [with straight walls, like a farm silo] were a part of the traveling carnival, fair and amusement park scene. I don't recall any substantial relationship with the circus, though there were some turn of the century examples mostly with bicycles. The one variant that has had a circus connection is the "globe of death," which dates back to the early 19th century and is still performed today. You might check earlier postings on this website about the motordrome topic. A gentleman named David Gaylin was doing research for a book on dromes and riders, but nothing has yet appeared in print. Al Stencell's 2002 book "Seeing is Believing" has a chapter on the topic, pages 100-117. I think that it's the most substantial coverage currently in print, though there is some coverage in other books about carnivals. The names that you provided are not in the index. Perhaps Stencell has some direct knowledge of your grandfather? Unfortunately, there is no real finding aid for carnival employees of any era. The largest public collection of documentation is at the International Independent Showmens Foundation site in Gibsonton, FL. A visit there would likely be necessary to search the collections. You might also search for websites that provide for postings about carnival history. Perhaps someone that worked with your grandfather will recall him, even if they are in their 80s or 90s today. Another possibility is to search the pages of "Billboard," the weekly trade publication that carried a couple pages of carnival news. It's been microfilmed and perhaps your local librarian can find a source for you. There was a lot of chatter in its pages about carnival employees. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 28 Nov 2007 - Hi, Years ago I got pictures of Bob Perry's monkey drome on Bill Hames Shows at the Texas Stock show - probably in the 1950's. Bob ran various small back end shows and had been a drome rider in the 1940's. He was well respected in the business. I came across several mentions of him while researching my second book - Seeing Is Believing. It has a chapter on motor dromes. In the chapter on monkey shows on midways you will see a photo of Bob's monkey drome.
          The Scottish band - MARSHAN used that photo as an inside illustration - full size on their CD booklet. The Cd is titled: MARSHAN - Songs from Southern and Baseline. The CD cover is a photo from Harry Fee's monkey speedway. I wish Harry was around to see it. I can hear him say: "Today's music is ape!" I think the chap in the ticket box on the monkey drome photo may be Bob Perry. MARSHAN web site is: www.marshanrock.com. Their recording company - www.funbagrecords.com. Al Stencell

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2172. Mabie Circus, 26 Nov 2007 - Hello, My great grandmother, Nellie Mabie was the niece of Edmund & Jeremiah of the Mabie Circus. In researching their circus, I'm unable to find any information about when the circus stopped running and why? If any one has information I would greatly appreciate it. Thank You, Kalena Miner. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 27 Nov 2007 - Kalena Miner - The Mabie Circus (by then a menagerie) was sold to Adam Forepaugh and John O'Brien in April, 1865 in Chicago. The new owners hired Dan Rice, and named the show after him. Stuart Thayer.

    Reply: 27 Nov 2007 - Jeremiah Mabie concluded the Mabie operation at the end of the 1864 tour. It would appear that weather aggravated an already tough season, causing him to discontinue operations and pursue his other investments. You can read about the Mabies in the book "Badger State Showmen," (1998), pages 1-12, by this writer and Stuart Thayer. Much greater detail about their menagerie and circus can be found in Stuart Thayer's "Annals of the American Circus, 1793-1860." The Mabie menagerie was sold to Adam Forepaugh. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 27 Nov 2007 - Having grown up in Delavan, Wisconsin, I would suggest trying to contact W. Gordon Yadon through the local historical society. Both brothers are buried in the Spring Grove cemetery, and the site of their farm and winterquarters is currently the Lake Lawn Lodge resort. I don't have my references handy (will check later), but here is some on-line info — the Phoenix brothers and their kin were the first settlers from New York state arriving around 1836.

    http://ci.delavan.wi.us/history.cfm

    The Mabie brothers took over where the Phoenix brothers had left off. They were financially well off and soon owned over 1,000 acres in the township. They purchased the Phoenix brothers gristmill, orchestrated the original plank road that was laid from Racine to Delavan and saw to the completion of the Racine-Mississippi railroad to this point in 1856. Edmund served a term as village president and they were both extremely fundamental in the development of Delavan during the pre-Civil War era.

    And from http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.wisconsin.counties.walworth/2435.1/mb.ashx

    Mr. Edmund Mabie was married, at Delavan, Nov. 25, 1850, to Miss Laura Buckley, daughter of Matthew Buckley. Soon after his marriage, Mr. Mabie gave up traveling with the show, and made his home in Delavan, where he devoted himself to the care of the farms, mills and other property belonging to himself and brother. Lance Burton

    Reply: 28 Nov 2007 - In "The Biggest, The Smallest, The Longest, The Shortest" author Dean Jensen states: "After the 1864 tour, the Mabies knew they could no longer keep the circus that had brought them fame and fortune. Edmund was 55 and Jeremiah 53. Both were sickly. Neither had the strength anymore to endure hardships on the road." Jensen further states that Jeremiah then traveled to Philadelphia where he met with John "Pogey" O'Brien (apparently an up and coming con man), who was in partnership with Adam Forepaugh, a Philadelphia butcher, to negotiate the sale. No date is given for this meeting.
          The "Circus Historical Souvenir Magazine," published in 1970 in Delavan adds the following: "Circus was sold to Adam Forepaugh for $42,000 and transported from Delavan to 12th and State Street Chicago, April 9, 1865. The Forepaugh circus operated until 1892 when it was sold to Barnum & Bailey."
          After this, it appears both Mabies retired to the Delavan area. Both had married much younger women and had large families. Jeremiah died at Lake Delavan (east of the city itself) on August 31, 1867. Edmund died on October 26, 1867, also at his home on the lake.
          To correct my earlier post, I rechecked and found that only Edmund and his wife Laura are buried in Spring Grove in Delavan. Jeremiah was said to have had a feud with a local cemetery official according to the Circus Historical Souvenir Magazine, and was buried in Putnam County, New York, as a result. Lance Burton

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2171. Ringling Bros. Barnum & Bailey sign, 25 Nov 2007 - I have a plastic sign that reads: Tuesday March 28th thru Monday March 29th. On the left side in a yellow circle it says 102nd Edition. In the middle is a picture of a clown and on both sides of the clown is a tiger and lion. In big yellow lettering across the middle it says, Ringling Bros. Barnum & Bailey Circus. In has under that on the left side the name of the producer Irvin Feld, and, on the right side Richard Barstow. Could you tell me anything about this sign? I included 2 pictures. TYVM, Ari, Ary47@aol.com. [Photos not included here - J. Griffin, webmaster]. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 27 Nov 2007 - The perpetual calendar indicates that the year of issue was 1972. The edition count starts with 1871, the year of the first Barnum circus tour. Fred Dahlinger

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2170. Flying Abbotts, 25 Nov 2007 - Looking for any information on the Flying Abbotts circus act. Dannie. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 03 Jan 2008 - Go to www.circusmuseum.nl/eng and type "abotts" for a nice poster 1904. Herman Voogd, hvoogd@teylersmuseum.nl

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2169. Thurston Circus, 24 Nov 2007 - Good Evening, my maiden name is Thurston, and my mother says that my father's family come from the 'Thurston Circus' family from Norfolk, England. However, I can find nothing on the internet about the Thurston Circus, only a reference in the 'Bandwagon' 1962 Vol 6 No 4 referring to a 'Thurston Trio' who were listed to be booked for Hubert Castle for a fair. Please can you help me with any more information on this circus and/or circus family? Many Thanks, Joan Birchley. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 25 Nov 2007 - come visit us at www.fairground-heritage.org.uk and post your request ;-) Thurstons were a fairground family based out of Ely (or Thetford) I think? I didn't hear of them being connected to circus but Dave Page would know.
          Mr Thurston's Wartime Memories (Thurston Funfairs) [www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/69/a7250069.shtml]
    and
          "This private carriage was built and decorated by G.Orton & Sons and C.J.Spooner. It is a fairground proprietor's caravan. Thurston's funfair is still in business (2006) and is based in Bedford." go to: www.staffspasttrack.org.uk/default.asp. Type Thurston in search box. Very best, Jim Stockley, South Africa.

    Reply: 25 Nov 2007 - The Thurston name in England is very famous for their fairground activities, not circus ownership. Sometimes the two different entities are confused. They owned rides, bioscopes and much more. You might search out Charles Thurston and other branches of the family, like William and Henry Thurston. Try Googling the names, using quotation marks, and perhaps adding another search term, such as "fairground." There's a small booklet about Charles Thurston and there have been writings about the others in various journals. The literature is actually quite extensive, searching for it will be a bit time consuming if you're in the US. One place to check is the National Fairground Archive at Sheffield University, Sheffield, England. Here's a link to their website home page: www.nfa.dept.shef.ac.uk/ Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 25 Nov 2007 - Google searches: Thurston +fairground and Thurston +fairgroud +Norfolk, both turned up a number of entries on the Thurston family's activities, history. J. Griffin

    Reply: 29 Apr 2008 - Thank you very much for all your replies. I will look at the suggested sites with interest. I have found information on Henry already, but have not found a Charles. I am not far from Norfolk, I live in Essex,England. Thank You again. Kind Regards, Joan

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2168. Lewis Reese, clown, 24 Nov 2007 - Family tradition states that my great-grandfather, Lewis “Pops” Reese, was one of the first clowns in a circus (possibly Ringling Bros.) in Brooklyn and/or New York City, NY. His son, Lewis “Joseph” Reese, was also in the circus, and was a “Shakespearean Actor.” Lewis, Sr. was born about 1826, and died in 1890. Lewis “Joseph” Reese, Jr. was born about 1847, and died in 1912. If anyone has any information on this family, I’d be forever grateful to hear from you. Thanks, Clark Kidder, Janesville, WI.

This is a link to my article in the Wisconsin Magazine of History for which I won the Hesseltine Award: www.wisconsinhistory.org/wmh/pdf/winter_03_kidder.pdf

This is a link to my book related web site: www.jvlnet.com/marilyn/

This is a link to the Wisconsin Humanities Council's site featuring info on my lectures:
www.wisconsinhumanities.org/SB_Speakers/kidder.html. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2167. Mazie Gray, Robbins Bros., 24 Nov 2007 - I had a great great aunt who performed for the Robbins Bros. circus in 20's and 30's. I'm doing research on my family. I know she performed with horses and elephants. Her name was Mazie Gray. Would you have any history on her? Thanks, Donna Skora. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 28 Nov 2007 - Joseph T. Bradbury wrote a series of articles about Fred Buchanan's Robbins Bros. Circus, 1924-1931, that was published in the society's journal, "Bandwagon." You can ascertain the issues containing these articles via the index and obtain copies. The final 1931 tour was covered in an earlier issue of the magazine "White Tops." Another other source, which Bradbury consulted for his series, is the weekly issues of the trade magazine "Billboard." It usually had a couple pages of circus news. There are many comments about show employees. The Robbins Bros. Circus of 1938 was an entirely different show and should not be confused with it, and the same applies to the earlier Burr Robbins and Frank A. Robbins circuses. Buckles Woodcock has a blog on line and you might check with him about Mazie Gray. He has a vast repository of elephant photos and perhaps she appears in one of them. The business records of the Robbins Bros. Circus disappeared long ago. Fred Dahlinger

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2166. Ringling-Barnum 1950s, 23 Nov 2007 - Am I dreaming or did I see Ringling/Barnum come into North Bend, Oregon on their train, Giraffes heads sticking out and the whole thing? It was in the middle 50s? I'm sure I saw them march down Virginia Ave elephants and all and set up by the airport. I'm sure I saw the three ring circus performance with Clyde Beatty, didn't I? I know one of his ex wives lived by us, I think. How would I find out about this? Michael Swanson Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 24 Nov 2007 - The Clyde Beatty Railroad Circus played North Bend, Oregon June 4, 1951; June 14 & 15, 1952; June 29, 1953 & June 20, 1955. You should check the local newspapers for the lot location, the walk from the railroad yard to the lot, and any other information you might need. I doubt if you will find any references to giraffes having their heads out of the railroad cars, that only happened in the movie DUMBO, not in real life. Ted Bowman Route Collection.

    Reply: 24 Nov 2007 - Clyde Beatty Circus played North Bend June 29, 1953, and possibly at other times but there were no giraffes on the show. By this time, Beatty had not appeared with Ringling-Barnum for nearly twenty years and he never appeared with them west of the Hudson. Nor did any ex-wives of his live in Oregon. His first was living back in Indiana, his second had passed away and his third was still married to him and survived him for many years. Ole Whitey

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2165. Blackpool Circus, 22 Nov 2007 - Loocking for Blackpool Circus programs from the period 1913-1914. Thanks a lot, Javier Perez, espejavilio@yahoo.es. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2164. Venice winterquarters, 20 Nov 2007 - Winter headquarters of the Ringling Bros Circus was in Venice, Florida. Seeking information about Venice site. Marypappert30@aol.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 21 Nov 2007 - The prelude to the presence of RBBB in Venice, 1946-1959, is covered in an excellent two-part article by Richard J. Reynolds III in "Bandwagon," the Nov-Dec 1994 and Nov-Dec 1995 issues. These can likely be purchased as back issues via information on this website. They are illustrated and extremely thorough. If you go to the "Publications" button, left click it, and then search the indexes for "White Tops," you will also find a number of articles about the Venice quarters that were published in that journal. The Venice newspapers, "Amusement Business" and other period resources should contain a good bit of documentation about the Venice quarters operation. Presumably the library in Venice may have a clipping file on the topic. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 22 Nov 2007 - A book, "Circus Days in Sarasota & Venice" by Kim Cool and published by Historic Venice Press in Venice Florida might be of some help. The Venice Gondolier Sun covered the Winter Quarters in Venice pretty well and should have archival information also. Robert Momyer

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2163. Memphis 1923, 20 Nov 2007 - My mother was born on June 1st, 1923 in Memphis, TN. In Aug or Sep of that year, her mother (my grandmother), probably suffering from what we now know as postpartum depression, joined a circus that had come to town - she left with them. From what I understand she became a show horse rider and toured with the circus for up to two years. At some point she returned to Memphis, remarried my grandfather and lived unhappily ever after. I'm trying to see if I can uncover more of the story by finding out what shows might have stopped in Memphis in the late summer of 1923 and then try to locate performer photos from the 1923-1926 time frame. I would be very grateful to anyone who could help point me in the right direction. Many thanks, John Macier. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 21 Nov 2007 - Someone may respond with some specific circus route dates, but barring that, the way to help yourself is to scan the Memphis newspapers for the period in question and look for circus advertisements. They stand out from other typical advertising and will readily come to your notice. Circus routes were also published in the weekly trade journal "Billboard." I would recommend that you also check for large carnival or midway advertisements, including those that may have played local fairs. In many minds the circus and carnival is confused as being one and the same thing. Some carnivals had large circus shows as a featured attraction, confusing the issue somewhat. You might be able to obtain microfilms of "Billboard" via interlibrary loan, but some libraries no longer loan their holdings. Others will not fund loans that require payment. Check with your local librarian to determine where the nearest holdings might be located or obtained. Once you have the show titles identified, then there's several avenues whereby additional documentation can be examined. It's possible that an "extra" may have been added to a riding act, but be aware that the story that has come down through your family may well be different than what actually happened.
          One readily available date was Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Combined Shows, which played Memphis on October 22, 1923, a bit later than your specified time period. Finding a photo of your grandmother amongst the 1200 or more employees of that particular circus would be a real prize. Fred Dahlinger

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2162. Hellman's Big Top, 20 Nov 2007 - I am seeking information regarding Hellman's Big Top. This circus would have been in existence in the 1960's; specifically, around 1967. Geraldine, garroyos@sbcglobal.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 21 Nov 2007 - The name "Hellman" doesn't appear in circus annals, but Joe McKennon's book on carnivals in America lists these carnival titles and periods of activity: Helman's Big H Shows (PA) 1962-1967; Helman's Big State Shows 1962-1967; and Helman's United Shows 1954. I suspect that this is the organization that you're seeking. The most readily available continuum of information about the enterprise would be the weekly issues of "Amusement Business," which started in 1960. Unfortunately, information supplied by many carnivals was pretty limited and you might find nothing about the Helman outfit therein. If you can ascertain the community in which the show wintered, or the name(s) of the principals, it might lead to a city wherein the proprietors are known, remembered or documented. The routes for many shows were also published in the same journal. Unfortunately, most motorized shows and local outfits [known as "40-milers"] have left little in the way of documentation to record their existence. I'll copy this posting to a few people with good carnival knowledge and perhaps they'll be able to offer some additional insights. Fred Dahlinger

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2161. Photos ca 1950, 20 Nov 2007 - I have a small collection of about 30 circus photographs, mostly from around 1950. Many clown photos, some signed, Clyde Beatty circus photos, etc. I would like to get in touch with a collector. Thanks, Doug, fauxma@citlink.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 22 Nov 2007 - I'm ALWAYS interested in clown photos! Pat Cashin, cashincomedy@mac.com, Boss Clown, The Cashin Comedy Co., WEBSITE: http://www.cashincomedy.com, BLOG: http://www.clownalley.net

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2160. Showman's Prayer poem, 19 Nov 2007 - Folks, I am missing my only copy of a poem that was read at my Dad's funeral. I was told it was a Showman's prayer, but that title yields another fine poem, not the one I'm seeking. I'm wondering if any one out there can point me to the right direction? Part of the last line is something to the effect of, "He parts the curtain and he finds The Greatest Show...Upthere!" It's about a ringmaster I think trodding through a lot somewhere near heaven. If this brings back a memory I would appreciate the source of the text for a personal memoir about my Dad. The Rev R.T. Carr Jr, of Santa Cruz. Would also like to hear from any friends who remember him in any way, including negatives! Thanks in advance to the membership of our little club. R.T. Carr III, Stanford CA, rtcarriii@yahoo.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 01 Dec 2007 - I wonder if you're not thinking of Courtney Ryley Cooper's short poem "In Circus Heaven." It can be found as an epilogue to Gene Plowden's book "Those Amazing Ringlings and their Circus." Regards, Ole Whitey

    Reply: 04 Dec 2007 - Thanks Ole Whitey! Not the right one, but a good time was had finding it! By the time I'm done I'll have more than a few I suppose. Thanks for the thought. R.T. Carr III, rtcarriii@yahoo.com

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2159. Bullen Circus, 19 Nov 2007 - Question 7 the circus was bullen circus. Dot Bullen is my sister in-law. Marlene and John Gardhouse, mgardhouse@bigpond.com. [Not related to question no. 7, unable to determine which question this was replying to - Webmaster]. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2158. Tim McCoy Wild West, 17 Nov 2007 - I am looking for a wagon and rail car list for Tim McCoy’s Wild West Show. Thank you. Robert McArthur (Poway, CA) rmcarthur@cox.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 19 Nov 2007 - There is a detailed listing of the wagons and railroad cars that comprised the Col. Tim McCoy's Wild West on pages 62 and 63 of the booklet assembled and published by Fred D. Pfening, Jr. in 1955, "Col. Tim McCoy's Real Wild West and Rough Riders of the World, Complete History and Official Route Book." The book contains a good number of images of both the train and the wagons and is worth locating in the second hand book market. Fred Dahlinger

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2157. Bell Brothers Circus, 17 Nov 2007 - I believe I attended Bell Brothers Circus performances in Broken Bow, Nebraska in the 1950's. The memory of this is vague. Was Bell Brothers a three or one ring cirucs? Did Col. Tim McCoy ever perform with Bell Brothers? Tim Varney, mariandtim@cox.net. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 19 Nov 2007 - The Bell Bros. Circus title was active in during the 1940-1942 seasons in Maryland and Pennsylvania under the proprietorship of Sam Dock. The Bell Bros. 3 Ring Wild Animal Circus was active under Tom Ewalt in 1945 & 1946. The show opened both years at Geneva, Nebraska and played the Kansas, Oklahoma, North Dakota, South Dakota, Colorado, Minnesota, Iowa & Wyoming area. The show did not play Broken Bow in 1946, and the 1945 route is incomplete. Ted Bowman Route Collection.

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2156. Ringling-Barnum, PBS History Detectives, 16 Nov 2007 - I'm researching a story for the PBS series History Detectives. A contributor has a 1933 Cobina Wright Society Circus program and we're trying to find out more about the circus which was held at the Waldorf-Astoria. A NY Times article April 9, 1933 notes "It is planned to erect a huge circus tent to cover the ballroom completely and to present, in a real sawdust ring beneath, a succession of circus acts donated by the Ringling Brothers-Barnum & Bailey outfit now holding forth in Madison Square Garden". We'd like to know what acts were donated and if any phonographs exist. Thanks for your help! Carol Sherman, Researcher, History Detectives, Oregon Public Broadcasting, Portland OR, 503 445-1852. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 17 Nov 2007 - Dear Carol Sherman, I found this article on Newspaperarchives.com from Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune, Wednesday, May 3, 1933. The article is from New York by Julia Blanshard. Quote:
          New York - Cobina Wright, social registerite, famous here and abroad for her annual fancy circus parties in which titled folk and other society celebrities not only have to wear costumes but perform in their own circus "acts," staged the best one of her life this year for the benefit of the Boy Scouts.
          The performers in the big ring, the side shows, palm reading booths and shooting galleries were a veritable cross-section of New York's "400," celebrities of the stage and screen, and famous artists and writers.
          Francis Lederer who, as a singing Alpine peasant in "Autumn Crocus," became the town's matinee idol, furnished inspiration for more men's costumes than any other single character at the circus. There must have been 100 Tyrolean peasants, among the colorful 1500 fancy costumes under the "big top" erected in the Waldorf-Astoria ballroom. De Wolfe Hopper, one of the pseudo-peasants, looked so native his best friends didn't recognize him.
          Marlene Dietrich and other women may have gone back to skirts, but there still seems to be a suppressed yen for trousers among women, judging by the numbers of them who appeared as bellhops, gigolos, cowboys, Spanish troubadours, pirates and be smocked Bohemian artists. Julia Hoyt, who came with "Sailor" Clifton Webb, was the most stunning gigolo. Dressed in white flannel trousers, mess jacket and correct shirt and tie, with a wig and sideburns, she looked very distinguished as she raffled off canines at the dog kennels.
          Rudy Comes Out. Rudy Vallee, in mufti, seemed not too heartbroken over his Reno troubles, as he squired lovely Erna Gilsow, an appealing blonde in a glamorous sparkling beaded white gown. Mr. and Mrs. Curtis Dall also were in mufti. Grover Whalen acknowledge the fancy dress edict by wearing a red carnation instead of a white gardenia in the button hole of his dinner jacket. Anne Morgan, in white satin with a sable wrap, watched the party from the stage.
          Charles Winninger was a dignified ring-master, garbed in a form-fitting black and white checked frock coat suit, with top hat of gray. Charles Le Mare, designer, in cerise blouse and white overalls, made a hit with the ladies.
          Looking very tin-type herself lovely Rosamond Pinchot made the most money for the boy Scouts of any booth-tender, taking tin-types for a quarter each. Rosamond wore an old-time shirtwaist and plaid green and black wool skirt that not only was pinned up in the back with a safety pin that showed below the belt - but her placket gaped in old fashioned manner.
          Countess De Forceville, in a picturesque scarlet circus queen costume, introduced the de Forceville troupe of tumblers from Europe. The Grand Duchess Marie was a simple Russian peasant girl. Cleon Throck-Morton, Peter Arno, Cecil Beaton, George Gershwin, Howard Chandler Christy, Russell Patterson, Otto Soglow, Noel Coward, Prince Matchabelli, and Dudley Field Malone were any oddly assorted, but none-the-less fierce, band of Paris Apaches. Unquote.
          Love the show and good luck. Richard Georgian, rgeorgian@embarqmail.com

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2155. Julia Pastrana book, 15 Nov 2007 - Our book "Julia Pastrana" has just been released. This novel is based on the life of 1850's circus performer Julia Pastrana and is our interpretation of what life may have been like for her and her manager, Theodor Lent. It is available at www.trafford.com as well as www.amazon.com. It will soon be available through Barnes and Noble, Chapters, and other bookstores. If you would like to contact me, my email is irlam2000@yahoo.com. Thanks very much and I hope you enjoy the book. Sandra Olson. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2154. First animal to play xylophone, 15 Nov 2007 - What was the first animal trained by the Barnum & Bailey circus to play the xylophone? LBPat64@aol.com. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2153. George Albert Whitman, 14 Nov 2007 - Looking for information on my grandfather George Albert Whitman, originally from England (might have been with Clyde Beatty Circus at some point) He worked with the circus in the 20s and 30s, may have trained and cared for animals, he traveled to Florida and Canada evey year. I think he had pony rides in Suffolk County New York in the 60's. Jean Frey, jfrey@poolnet.com, Rockville, Maryland. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

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2152. Linn County Missouri, 14 Nov 2007 - An ancestor is said to have had a life-long fascination with the circus and perhaps even worked with one. He was born in Milan, Linn County (north central) Missouri in 1850. For the fifty years following his birth, which circuses might have toured this rural area? The smallest clues are welcomed! Pamela Gibson, Ridgway, Colorado. Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 15 Nov 2007 - The best way to develop an answer to your question is to state the name of the person in question, if it's known to you. It might be recognized or otherwise recorded in the published documentation. If you know their death date and location, a local obituary may have mentioned their show service, as it was a novelty. Following that, the next best methodology is a scanning of the preserved newspapers for the area. They might reveal the advertising of shows that went through the community. If there was no local newspaper, try the closest county seats and their newspapers [Kirksville, Macon, Chillicothe, Trenton]. You might also check census records, city directories and other documents that record "ordinary" life. Sometimes they mention show affiliations.
          If your ancestor joined a visiting show, it came and went from somewhere, and if there's no local documentation doing an ever widening circle search around Linn County might provide a partial answer. Look at the roads that existed in the post-Civil War era and determine by what route circuses might have traversed Linn County. If there was a rail line across Linn County, shows may have traversed it. Perhaps some local groups or the state historical society may be able to help you in determining these routes and may also have some holdings on circus history. To the east, the W. W. Cole and Yankee Robinson circuses came out of Quincy, IL and might have rolled across Linn County coming out of or heading into winter quarters. Robinson was active in the 1860s-1870s and Cole in the 1870s. To the west, St. Joseph was a popular show town, home to pioneering collector Billy Allee. Fred Dahlinger

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2151. Circuses Quebec early 1900s, 14 Nov 2007 - I am finding it very difficult to locate information of any detail of circuses in Quebec in the early 1900s, and in the hopes of being greedy, their moving across Canada (in the early 1900s). I managed to locate some information on a circus called: Haag that traveled into Canada via Ontario and town is named. But if I do a search from the Canadian end of history I find nothing of the other stops they made, other than one in Quebec. But it is an integral part to my current historical fiction novel of that period to find such information, and so I continue on in my search. Can you help? (I read that Louis Cyr of Quebec may be the key to the start of circus in Quebec, but although intriguing he seems to be more of a strongman.) Frustrated but tenacious, Maureen Wallner, writer/poet (born & raised in Montreal, now of Illinois). Reply to this message, replies go to this board, not to the message sender.

    Reply: 15 Nov 2007 - Ever since John Bill Ricketts arrived in Montreal on August 25, 1797, the circus has existed in the Canadian Province of Quebec. Most circuses that played there were mostly passing through but some of them originated from such places as Lacolle (Le Cirque Louis Cyr (1901) as well as a certain Bosco Circus that is rumored to have been based in Montreal. Stuart Thayer, author of Annals of the American Circus (1793-1829) examined thousands of newspaper documents on microfilms in an effort to trace the evolution of the circus throughout Canada and the U.S. Eventually he would add two more volumes that cover 1830-1847 and 1848-1860. Writer Paul Ohl's Louis Cyr (Une Épopée Légendaire) a french biography of the famous strongman, mentions the Cyr Circus. At La Bibliothèque National du Québec you can research all the publications of the Province of Québec dating back to the 1778 Gazette. Research is a tedious job that requires going through many different documents. Since circuses used a profuse amount of advertisement you can rest assured that somewhere there is a mention of there presence. Then again, you have the Circus World Museum in Baraboo, Wi that have the biggest circus library in existence. Then, there is the computer that can link you with the entire planet earth (if only you ask the right questions). However, since you want to write a current historical fiction, you don't need to go to any length but simply read a few good circus books that covers that era. Gary Jennings novel Spangle is an ideal example of the evolution of a circus that struggles through the Civil War and grows into a major size circus that travels the world. The author dedicated over 10 years of recherche into the making of this epic novel. - Giovanni Iuliani

    Reply: 15 Nov 2007 - I believe that there's a list of compiled dates for some Canadian communities, Guelph, Ontario and another community across the border from New York state. These would be filed in the Circus World Museum library. They would identify some of the circuses that visited the Canadian territory during your period of interest. The Haag outfit was a railroad show when it played Canada. You would then have to seek the routes for those shows, to learn how much of the route involved Canada. There are also routes in the CWM library files. Given your proximity in Illinois, you might schedule a visitation. Few circuses "played across" Canada, mostly it was loops into more heavily populated areas. The anticipated audience and the existence of roads and railroads dictated where the shows could travel. Once you identify shows of interest, you can then pursue more details about them. Perusal of the "Billboard" and "Clipper" for the years of interest would also be a worthwhile undertaking. Quebec's circus history starts long before Louis Cyr, unless you're referring only to shows that originated in the province. His was a pretty modest enterprise, his fame largely coming from other activities. He was later with the John Robinson circus, and perhaps others, too. An important decision that you'll need to make is whether the "model" fictional circus you're visualizing is an overland [horse and wagon] or railroad operation, and the relative size. The details differ accordingly. The fictional circus depicted in one recent and relatively popular novel is an not accurate representation. Fred Dahlinger

    Reply: 19 Nov 2007 - Are you talking about the Haag Circus playing in the City or the Province of Quebec? I cannot confirm the show played in Quebec City although there are a number of dates across the Provinces of Ontario, Quebec, and New Brunswick. See posting #667 on this site. artistofdetroit@aol.com.

    Reply: 29 Oct 2008 - Good afternoon, I have been a while in replying, as a) I have always had difficulties navigating this site to find anything and b) I only accidentally today stumbled upon my query to Circus History in Googling my name in connection with something else.
        So I would like to thank you all for your plethora of information, some of which I will be pursuing, and I have question directed to Fred Dahlinger (?):
        Anyway, the question is your statement: “An important decision that you'll need to make is whether the "model" fictional circus you're visualizing is an overland [horse and wagon] or railroad operation, and the relative size. The details differ accordingly. The fictional circus depicted in one recent and relatively popular novel is an not accurate representation. Since there is a typo I can’t tell if it is or isn’t an accurate representation.”
        If it is [an accurate representation] I’d like to see it, which brings me to: should I be looking for this Fred Dahlinger as author is that you? And as for you reply, I guess I will have to dig for it out again on the site via some number unknown since responses will not come to me directly. (Sigh) if I only I knew how the Circus History system works. Thanks. Maureen

    Reply: 31 Oct 2008 - Sorry for the typo. The representation in the book was not accurate and therefore not worth pursuing. You're best off learning from period documentation, if not primary materials, then secondary texts. I would recommend, as a start, that you peruse some of the articles and books that are on this website. Go to the home page, to the "History" icon on the left margin, left click it once and scroll down the History page to "Articles, Books," where you will find many pieces to read. Simply left click on any of the red-titled pieces listed there.
        A good general piece about the railroad circus is "On the Road With a Circus." The operation would have been largely unchanged from the 1880s to the 1920s, save for advancing technology. A railroad circus is the type that would have crossed the border, from the US to Canada. If an overland show is your desire, read "Ins and Outs of Circus Life," and also seek the memoirs by George Conklin and David Lano from your local librarian or a book resale website. There are many other worthwhile books and articles.
        To gain more specific knowledge about circuses in your time frame, you will need to read copies of the weekly publications "Billboard" and "New York Clipper." They will list routes, have news about various troupes, etc. Contact your local interlibrary loan librarian for assistance in securing them on microfilm. As you identify a certain circus or two that might provide a suitable inspiration for your fictional troupe, it's then possible to focus on them via other research means.
        The circuses that crossed the border from the US to Canada did not substantially change in physical configuration or method of operation. The one challenge that American troupes would have faced in Canada was the French language spoken in Quebec. There may have been some bilingual people with the show, if they had French origins or heritage, but that's not very likely. I'm not familiar with what percentage of Quebec residents may have been bilingual. There may have been other local laws to which troupes had to conform and perhaps a study of period Canadian newspapers would reveal these differences.
        An often overlooked circus man who resided in Canada was Martin J. Downs. He lived in Toronto, in a large stone house, but his circus wintered in Harborcreek, near Erie, Pennsylvania. Downs was the owner of the Sells & Downs circus 1902-1905 and the Cole Bros. circus 1906-1909. He died October 19, 1909 of blood poisoning, after being kicked in the abdomen by a horse the year before. As he lay ill, his circus winter quarters burned; see www.circushistory.org/Bandwagon/bw-1952Aug.htm. The Downs estate was valued at over $100,000, several million of today's dollars, so he was successful in the trade. I don't know if he took his show to Canada or not, but others will have those routes. If you Google his name and variations thereon, with and without the word "circus," you'll find any number of references. The are a variety of photographs of the Downs circuses, as well as route books, an auction catalog, and other ephemera. Fred Dahlinger

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